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philbox
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Aug 23, 2002, 12:16 AM
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I would have to agree about not wanting to climb with someone who only relys on a Grigri. I use one all the time but I never never just rely on the Grigri. I always rely on the system that I have developed that safely uses the Grigri.
I particularly like belaying an aid lead climber on those long lonely stints at the belay. If I get a bit drowsy I`ll either throw a couple of wraps of the rope around my leg or tie a back up knot that will not feed through the device. If I do happen to doze off then my partner gives the rope a couple of yanks to wake me up and hey presto I`m on the job again never having put my partner in danger.
Seven hours on one belay teaches one a couple of tricks or so.
...Phil...
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lightboi
Aug 23, 2002, 12:58 AM
Post #27 of 94
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Good forum Munchkin, but I disagree with recomending the GRI-GRI for newbies. It is just too complicated for a newbie to use safely. I is easy to rig wrong, and how can you be sure that a newbie is learning correct belaying technique. All other devices work basicly the same. Every climber when they hear FALLING should have their brake hand automaticly go behind thier hip. How will a newbie learn this if the belay device does not require proper hand placement for lock off to occur. The newbies that I mentor dont even see my gri-gri untill they are able to second. The first two things that I teach, first day is how to belay using ATC/B-52/sticht plate ect. Next I teach the munter hitch for when you drop that belay device and lose it in the talus.
I also think of the people that I teach to climb as my students. I feel responsible for their saftey long after they stop climbing with me. Belaying takes little time to learn, and soon becomes a habit, but if proper habits are never learned then more stupid belaying accidents happen.
btw I love the reverso, but the jaws is a close second.
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fitz
Aug 23, 2002, 1:21 AM
Post #28 of 94
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Not to offend (but hey, now that qualitive ratings are gone...), but I think that debating about a 'best' belay device is a bit silly. Especially if you do not factor in situation.
With frozen ropes, a figure 8 has some real advantages. Long aid belays, or guiding an inexperienced second, a gri-gri's features might offset its weight. Even the ancient hip belay is still a good choice in certain circumstances.
Bottom line, they're just tools. Learn their strengths and weaknesses and chose the one that works well for you in a given situation.
-jjf
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 23, 2002, 1:54 AM
Post #29 of 94
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Joe (fitz) wrote:
Quote: Not to offend (but hey, now that qualitive ratings are gone...), but I think that debating about a 'best' belay device is a bit silly. Especially if you do not factor in situation.
You have misinterpreted the meaning of the thread. Firstly, if you would have read the topic's title, the word is 'preferable' and not 'best.' This thread, as intended wholly by me, is simply for seeing which climbers prefer which belay device, for which types of climbing, as you have stated earlier, with the factoring of particular situations or scenarios.
Quote:Bottom line, they're just tools. Learn their strengths and weaknesses and chose the one that works well for you in a given situation.
I completely agree, and with the reading of this thread it will make it easier to learn such belay devices' strengths and weaknesses. If some posters take the time to elaborate upon why they actually prefer the belay device as opposed to another, it will help the beginner (or perhaps seasoned) climber into which belay device to purchase.
Josh (lightboi) wrote:
Quote:Good forum Munchkin, but I disagree with recomending the GRI-GRI for newbies. It is just too complicated for a newbie to use safely. I is easy to rig wrong, and how can you be sure that a newbie is learning correct belaying technique.
The GriGri should not be recommended to beginner climbers? This is nonsense! The GriGri's distinct use requires no real knowledge of climbing due to the pictorial instruction engraved right into the device's material. If a beginner climber cannot even attempt to rig a GriGri properly, there is no use for them to even be climbing, for a lack of general intelligence.
With the braking system acquired by the GriGri, it is impossible for a climber to fall to the ground if the belayer is not grabbing the rope properly. With an ATC, or a belay device of that sort (Figure Eight, etc.), if the belayer is not grabbing the rope properly, and the climber falls to the ground, it is their fault. This is impossible to happen with a GriGri.
If a beginner climber certainly does not know to use a GriGri (which is in my opinion the easiest belay device to properly utilize), they should not be belaying with any other device, as their are more danger factors that go along with such 'other devices.'
Quote:Every climber when they hear FALLING should have their brake hand automaticly go behind thier hip. How will a newbie learn this if the belay device does not require proper hand placement for lock off to occur.
In this statement you imply the the beginner who has been used to the GriGri, switches over to an ATC (or device of that sort) for its proper use. This cannot be done without the proper instruction. It is the duty of more seasoned climbers to properly instruct the beginner climber's in the proper utilization of belay devices. Such should go without saying.
Phil (philbox) wrote:
Quote: I would have to agree about not wanting to climb with someone who only relys on a Grigri. I use one all the time but I never never just rely on the Grigri. I always rely on the system that I have developed that safely uses the Grigri.
I agree that it is insufficient to rely solely upon one particular belay device. It is healthy to learn to properly utilize a wide array of belay devices as to not miss out on many new climbing experienced due to a lack of 'belaying knowledge.'
Jason (wonderbread) wrote:
Quote:the petzl gri-gri, it's fool proof.
Any belay device is fool proof with proper utilization.
...
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spydermonkey
Aug 23, 2002, 1:57 AM
Post #30 of 94
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I like ATC and GriGri. GriGri are nice because of the auto locking feature. Save energy.
spyder
nice pics by the way. were did you get them?
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 23, 2002, 2:17 AM
Post #31 of 94
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Chuck (spydermonkey), if you click on the pictures, you will find their location, and discover further details of the product.
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billcoe_
Aug 23, 2002, 2:21 AM
Post #32 of 94
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I have lots of belay devices: but only use 4 consistantly.
Hip Belay: Fitz, you and me bubba, we're the last neanderathals using the ass. For easy ground - it's the best. If the belayer has a solid stance (sitting with feet on nubbins) near impossible to beat. Certainly the easiest to use to keep up with a running partner.
Tuber and a Petzel Attache biner: Is this the lighest combo on the market? I use it on long days and multiday climbs where I don't have to (or want to) drag extra weight. I already have enough weight on my stomach and ass for the hip belays.
SMC anodized straight 8 (figure . I use the little hole like a ATC, and get great rappels using the 8, smooth and big enough to absorb the heat. I always use 2 biners on this to get more friction. That makes it heavy and bulky. But, otherwise, for TR, cragging or short climbs (pitch or 2) this one is the combo I love the most.
Munter hitch. Sometimes I just use it. no reason.
Toodle oosski!!!!
Bill
PS -all this talk about gear got me reved up to buy a B-52. It's in the mail on the way.
[ This Message was edited by: billcoe_ on 2002-09-02 19:39 ]
OK, (9-12)Got the B-52 - it sucks big: I'd avoid it at all costs. I'm not kidding, I've written the factory and also posted on another thread. Any of the devices on this site already discussed will work better IMO than a B-52. ANY.
[ This Message was edited by: billcoe_ on 2002-09-15 21:23 ]
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arockclimber
Aug 23, 2002, 2:34 AM
Post #33 of 94
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Just a few thoughts. Petzl Reverso is my favorite for reasons already mentioned (belay, rappel, auto-locking when bringing up second(s), faster transitions at the belay, and an improvised ascender).
One safety note, Joemor mentions in a post that:
"with two levels of friction in case you have to catch heavier than normal loads"
I can't find the instructions for my Reverso, but I belive that you are only supposed to belay on the rounded side of the Reverso (as the diagram on the device shows). The less rounded side can be used to DESCEND for increased friction.
I do agree with some other folks about new climbers learning to use a Gri-Gri as their first belay device. I feel that new climbers should learn how to use a "conventional" belay device before they learn to use a Gri-Gri.
Most people I see who use a Gri-Gri a lot tend to do things with it that would be unsafe with a "regular" belay device. They take their break hand off the rope, they tend to be less attentive because they feel the "can't" drop someone, I've seen the device rigged backwards and folks get dropped. When you work under the false pretense that a device is going to do YOUR job, folks tend to get complaicent and let their guard down.
If you teach new climbers how to use a "regular" device first and impart the importance of the task they are undertaking they tend to take the situation more seriously and pay more attention to the situation at hand. (They aren't relying on a gadget to do their job, they understand that if they screw up or don't pay attention someone will get hurt.)
Most new climbers can take the $50 they will save (versus the $72 Gri-Gri) by buying a regular belay device and use it to buy things they need more than a Gri-Gri. Things that are more useful than a heavy, auto-locking belay device, which has a very static lock off (no dynamic belay effect), can only be used on single ropes, and can't be used in winter conditions.
Don't me wrong, I'm a fan of the Gri-Gri for certain situations. I own one and use it often.
Metoliusmunchkin, you seem to be waving the flag for Mountain Gear pretty hard. Your original post seems like an advertisement for belay devices that Mountain Gear sells, not a discussion about the pros and cons of different belay devices or a discussion of their applications or sutability for different climbing situations. (No offense meant by this comment, just pointing out my general impression of the post.)
Have fun, be safe!
arockclimber
[ This Message was edited by: arockclimber on 2002-08-23 05:31 ]
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rush
Aug 23, 2002, 3:25 AM
Post #34 of 94
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My simple to use and very smooth Reverso
Climb on
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k9rocko
Aug 23, 2002, 3:43 AM
Post #35 of 94
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......and for my favorite
The Hugh Banner Sheriff
http://a1072.g.akamai.net/...umbimages/610868.jpg
Available from REI.com for $14.95
The reason why? I like the solid keeper. The cable on the ATC is kind of floppy. The solid stay on the Sheriff keeps me tight when setting up belay/rappels etc.
I also own, but don't like the Trango Jaws quite as much. The Jaws seems harder on the rope (if I am lowering someone). The same goes for the Gri-Gri.
An ATC type device rolls the rope across opposing points of friction where both Jaws and Gri-Gri actually pinch or force the rope through a narrow constriction.
I do, however, frequently use the Gri-Gri and Jaws when abusing my belayer on a harder route I am expecting to yo-yo hangdog.
[ This Message was edited by: k9rocko on 2002-08-22 20:51 ]
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rockgymman
Aug 23, 2002, 3:54 AM
Post #36 of 94
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And here we go again: Has anyone ever used a Gri -Gri enough to wear it out?? Well we do,THEY CAN AND WILL FAIL. They are mechanical, they depend on one very small rivet, as to weather they fail, or they hold!! And let me tell you, when that rivet fails, you are left with a piece of junk in your hand. ALways back up any device, in particular, a mechanical one!!! We very carefully inspect every one of them, every day. We know what to look for!! DO YOU!!!! IT is not a solid piece, its a mass of parts. CHECK IT OUT YOUR CLIMBERS LIFE MAY, HINGE ON IT !!! GET IT
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fingerjam
Aug 23, 2002, 4:23 AM
Post #37 of 94
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ATC, simple, easy, effective.
By the way, nice job Metoliusmunchin, this must have been a huge time burner. I wouldnt waste my time making and updating this post, I'd be climbing. It's all up to you man, whatever works.
Laterz
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foograbbinstone
Aug 23, 2002, 5:38 AM
Post #38 of 94
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I'ld have to say, all around use my 8. I like fast rapps/. Now if your talking about belaying, I'ld say my ATC(I have a few other types) its simple, efficient and you can dbl rope it. I haven't used the the reverso or the gri-gri yet but I've been thinking about getting a reverso sooner or later. I'm really not that big on the gri. I think your better off teaching your second the proper method and if your still concerned either dont climb with them or back'em with a prusik.
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jmlangford
Aug 23, 2002, 5:50 AM
Post #39 of 94
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Weapon of choice?
Oh, I'm sorry, I was thinking guns. Didn't read the rest of the title.
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hallm
Aug 23, 2002, 6:27 AM
Post #40 of 94
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BD Super 8
Stitch Plate
Biner brake (learn to make it if you don't know)
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fitz
Aug 23, 2002, 6:38 AM
Post #41 of 94
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Metoliusmunchkin,
Don't get too hung up on semantics, feel free to substitute 'preferred' for 'best' in my earlier post, the point is basically the same. Preferences can also change with situation.
I'd have to agree with some other posters, a gri-gri is not, IMO, a good way to learn how to belay. The device itself is also ill equiped for many belay situations.
Also (I really don't mean to pick on you), I'd argue that NO belay device is fool proof (never underestimate the power of fools...) Seriously, there are situations where accidents can occur, even when a particular belay device is used correctly.
Billcoe,
I've got a scorched fleece as a testament that the hip belay is alive and well (yes, the climber is alive and well too, I arrested his fall). For a fast moving second on easy ground, or an axe shoved into slush as an anchor, hip is, uh, hip. I use a Munter off the anchor sometimes as well. It does twist the rope, but it is strong and comfortable.
-jjf
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downshift
Aug 23, 2002, 1:21 PM
Post #42 of 94
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Personally I have a gri gri and a reverso. I just got the reverso a few weeks ago and really like it so far... I can't complain about it yet. I used to also use an ATC and it was a decent device as well.
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tradguy
Aug 23, 2002, 6:21 PM
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Devices I own (acquired in this order):
Figure 8
stitch plate
BD ATC
HB Sherriff
WC Variable Controller
Petzl Reverso
Hip belays and boot-axe belays are also very handy to know and use in mountaineering when you want to set something up quickly and the chance of a fall is minimal. Good to know both. Munter hitch is also nice for that possible time when you drop your belay device. Some additional comments:
I've used Gri Gri's extensively, and found that while they do have benefits, I generally do not prefer them unless I think there is a good chance the climber is going to do alot of hanging on the rope. Thus, I like them for gym climbing and hard top-roping, but for everything else I simply find them heavy and cumbersome. I also think they have a higher propensity for failure because people DO sometimes rig them incorrectly. I also don't like the sudden release point when you go to lower someone, as I have seen many people in the gym drop climbers VERY quickly with a sudden stop near, or sometimes at, the ground. Kind of scary. The $80+ price tag has also discouraged me from buying one.
The Reverso is my device of choice. I find it to be very smooth, easy to use, and extremely versatile. I especially like the auto-lockoff feature for top belaying. The Wild Country Variable Controller is nice, but I find it is not smooth when lowering a climber or rappelling with my 10.5 and 11 mm ropes. On skinnier ropes (under 10.5) it has always worked wonderfully. As a whole, it seems like it locks off a bit tighter than the ATC. The ATC is the old standard, and works fine, except that I've noticed the flimsy plastic cable seems to get pulled into the ropes and mauled (bent and melted) when doing long double-rope rappells. The HB Sherriff cures this with the metal keeper ring, but it weighs a bit more. The stitch plate works, but is kept in my car simply as a backup just in case I forget another one. I don't really care for figure 8's because I find that they tend to put twists into the rope that make handling a pain in the butt later. Also, I never felt they locked off as well as other devices listed.
[ This Message was edited by: tradguy on 2002-08-23 11:25 ]
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superdiamonddave
Aug 23, 2002, 7:34 PM
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Tradguy, nice explanations. I agree with everything you said but I can't comment on the reverso because I have not used one.
If someone has used the B-52 quite a bit, I would like to hear what you like/don't like about it.
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 23, 2002, 8:50 PM
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For a long while have I used the GriGri, and have found no troubles with it, nor its ease of use. I am now however beginning to teach myself to better use the Trango Jaws (which, I consider to be a form of ATC).
There is one particular aspect of the Trango Jaws that I do not agree with however, and I was wondering if any other belay devices do the same: I have found that my Jaws twist the rope into unnatural kinks, etc. What I am wondering is more of a fact of thought;
"Does this happen using other belay devices (excluding the GriGri - as I know it does not do this)?"
"Does this harm the rope in any particular way?"
"With the use of certain belay devices, how long should a rope last according to its terms of use?"
...
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dustinap
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Aug 23, 2002, 9:09 PM
Post #46 of 94
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Trango jaws shouldn't kink the rope if used properly. Alot of climbers that use a belay loop thread their tube belay device improperly. The climbers end of the rope should come out on top of the belay device, the brake hand should be on the bottom. Many climbers reverse this, which can cause kinks in the rope.
For me it's
1st. Grigri, I love it and use often.
2nd. Trango Pyramid, I love this and normally use it when I'm outside.
3rd. Hip Belay, I don't use it very often, but atleast I know how to. I may need it some day.
[ This Message was edited by: dustinap on 2002-08-23 14:13 ]
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 24, 2002, 12:27 AM
Post #47 of 94
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Using the Trango Jaws, I perform the hip belay. For the readers information: I have not reversed the style of belaying with the Trango Jaws, yet have continuously encountered twists and loops being put in the rope due to its use.
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jt512
Aug 24, 2002, 12:30 AM
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Quote:Alot of climbers that use a belay loop thread their tube belay device improperly. The climbers end of the rope should come out on top of the belay device, the brake hand should be on the bottom. Many climbers reverse this, which can cause kinks in the rope.
Even (or especially) if you belay off your harness tie-in points (which I consider incorrect), the belay device can kink the rope if the rope is allowed to run over the side of the device, forming a 90-degree between the two strands of the rope, instead of a 180-degree angle. Be especially careful of this when lowering.
-Jay
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metoliusmunchkin
Aug 24, 2002, 2:40 PM
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Jay (jt512) wrote:
Quote:Even (or especially) if you belay off your harness tie-in points (which I consider incorrect), the belay device can kink the rope if the rope is allowed to run over the side of the device, forming a 90-degree between the two strands of the rope, instead of a 180-degree angle. Be especially careful of this when lowering.
Basically you are explaining that it is best to lower the climber placing the rope at a 180-degree angle (perpendicular to the side of the belay device), rather than placing the rope below the belay device (at the 90-degree angle of which you speak), am I correct? Excuse me, for I had not firstly understood the meaning intended.
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pir8penguin
Aug 24, 2002, 3:45 PM
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I have to disagree munchkin. GriGri's aren't failsafe, they do fail, and they are composed of multiple peices, so there are chances for failure of the device that exceed the likelyhood of atc or other tube style devices failing.
that being said, there is little instance (reported) of the GriGri failing when USED PROPERLY. Also, the device is very safe. However, as can be said about Petzl harnesses, the habits they tend to encourage are less safe.
For example, a belayer cuts his teeth on a GriGri, naturally (if only subconciously) learning that he need not lock off to arrest a fall. While out climbing with his friends, he uses an atc, jaws, plate to belay, and his partner falls. There is a chance that he could remove his brake hand without really thinking about it as being dangerous.
If you learn first wiht a tube device, you learn that the livelyhood of your climber is in your brake hand, and it gets burned into your mind.
Oh, the comment about Petzl harnesses earlier just relates to not having to double them back, so you get in the habit of "pull and go" without doubling. That being said, I use both a Petzl harness and GriGri.
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