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kounterclokwise
May 19, 2006, 9:44 PM
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So, i got all my stuff coming in the mail, Ive been to the gym, Ive ghosted this forum for awhile, and Ive asked more experienced people at shops and such where/how to setup.
conveniently i live at the base of a small mountain with about 8 routes on it within 5 minutes of my driveway. they arnt tall but my gosh they are hard. they are bolted so they are meant to be sport climbed with quick draws. when i look at it though it seems like suicide if you fell far away from your last bolt. (but I'm not sport climbing... yet)
at the top of those bolted routes, there are the 2 bolts with rap rings in them.
first Question-
Would this be safe/practical/smart?
I will have one 10.5mm x 60M rope to top-rope with.
My goal- to setup that rope through the rap rings to top-rope and belay from below.
My problem- i need to use the same rope to rap to the Bolts and run the top rope.
My solution- Use a tree as an anchor made of webbing with a biner on it. put a fig.8 on a bight in the middle of rope, clip that loop to the biner, one side of the rope is the rap line. The other side will run through the rap rings on the bolts. to do that ill tie the end of this side of the rope to my harness and untie when i get the bolts and thread it through. After that i just pull all the rope through till it doesn't have slack between my anchor and the rap rings. i rappel all the way down and walk back around to the top, untie the fig.8 knot and then let go and i should have both ends of the rope on the ground, with the middle running through the rap rings on the bolts.
viola, top-rope?
so i read that and was like wow, i suck at making sense so... paint away!!
http://img.photobucket.com/...wise/topropeidea.jpg
maybe that clears it up.
I have read up on prussic (Sp) knots and i have practiced using them in a tree in my yard.
Second Question-
Can i use my 10.5mm rope to rappel with? with either a figure8 or an ATC? pros and cons of each?
thanks ahead of time, i hope this wasnt too redundant for first time posting. if it was skip the flame wars and just close the thread, ill get the message..
any other pointers?
ive read up and practiced anchors and powerpoints, redundancy, angles of the webbing..
I live in south huntsville near green mountain and montesano mountain- if any one is in the area..
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el_layclimber
May 19, 2006, 9:50 PM
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Seems like it would work.
Or using a sling (or two) girth-hitched to your belay loop, you could rap to the anchors, clip into them, pull the rope from your previous anchor, thread it and rap the rest of the way.
In the end, just be sure to test the new anchor you are on befor you come completely off the old one. Double check everything and if you hit the ground, you know you made a mistake. :lol:
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samanddusti
May 19, 2006, 9:56 PM
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STOP ur gonna get hurt, im not an expert but i do know that u cant top rope using the rap rings as a power point. They are for rapping and with the extreme friction experienced while TR your rope will cut right through the rope. The rope should run through two caribeaners, opposite and apposed, not rap rings.
Go with someone who knows what their doing, rapping down to set up a top rope is not the easiest thing to do.
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112
May 19, 2006, 9:56 PM
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In reply to: My goal- to setup that rope through the rap rings to top-rope and belay from below.
This is considered rude as you will put unnecessary wear on those rap rings. Supply your own carribeaners to take the wear. Quick draws are the easiest answer, but whatever you do, ensure that your setup won't 'bind' on the rope.
You stated that you have read up on the subject, but your lack of understanding of this 'basic' point, makes me think you need to reread or find another referance. And somebody in the area please help this person out, they obviously are going to try 'something' being so close to the crag.
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jdouble
May 19, 2006, 10:00 PM
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I had to vote 'no, YOUR are retarded......'. It was just too funny.
And welcome.
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kounterclokwise
May 19, 2006, 10:07 PM
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originally i had planned on using biners on the rap rings to run my rope through, then i thought i read on this forum that it was okay just to use the rap rings. i have the biners, its no big deal, just an extra walk up the the top and rap back down to get the biners. Also, some of them have the new rap anchors that are big and look like triangles, i beleive i read those were okay to top rope through?
and i wouldnt call this a crag persay... ive been up there on weekends for 3 weekends now, and i still havnt seen anyone else there. but they come sometime cause there is alot of chalk and footprints lol.
i wish i thought of the idea of just anchoring myself to bolt and then setting the top rope up and then rapping off of it. seems more simple, and i dont have to deal with untieing a knot at the top.
thanks for the quick responses.
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bill413
May 19, 2006, 10:07 PM
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In reply to: My goal- to setup that rope through the rap rings to top-rope and belay from below.
In reply to: put a fig.8 on a bight in the middle of rope, clip that loop to the biner,
In reply to: viola, top-rope?
However:
In reply to: Second Question- Can i use my 10.5mm rope to rappel with? with either a figure8 or an ATC? pros and cons of each?
I'd really suggest having someone along who is knowledgeable the first few times you try this. I know this is a standard mantra on the site, but there's a reason for it.
Good luck.
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kounterclokwise
May 19, 2006, 10:13 PM
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let me elaborate on question 2
10.5 mm dynamic rope, no dry treatment.. if that matters.
i make an anchor(s) at the top of a cliff, tie the rope to it, can i rappel on this rope? with out it being doubled? does it tear up the rope?
You guys act like ive been trying these ideas for years and i could die at any minute, but i havnt done shit yet cause i dont know if its how you do it... so i ask first..
just friendly questions looking for friendly answers
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112
May 19, 2006, 10:31 PM
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It is fine to rap on a single line of 10.5 (you can actually go much smaller).
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112
May 19, 2006, 10:42 PM
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In reply to: i wish i thought of the idea of just anchoring myself to bolt and then setting the top rope up and then rapping off of it. seems more simple, and i dont have to deal with untieing a knot at the top.
I actually liked your idea because it eliminated the need to re-rig the rappel which can kill you if done wrong!
I wish I was there. I would show you how to do it.
Side note: Try to limit the wear you induce on any fixed gear, unless you are going to return and replace it when the fixed gear wears out. (I see people toproping through fixed gear all the time - people who know better as well as those who don't :evil:).
Take care and be safe!
Ken
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kman
May 19, 2006, 10:43 PM
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Seriously man, it's quite obvious that you don't have the slightest clue on what you are doing. Not trying to be mean...just getting to the point. This site is definately not the place to learn. There is some good advice on these forums but there is also a lot of hot air and without any good solid basic understanding, you won't be able to filter out the shit.
There are too many idiots on here that give really really clueless advice example:
In reply to: ... and with the extreme friction experienced while TR your rope will cut right through the rope...
There is also alot of incomplete information that floats around here. A little knowledge can be a bad thing.
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kounterclokwise
May 19, 2006, 11:08 PM
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point taken kman. thankyou. i am aware of the bullshit that goes down in forums whether its climbing, paintball, or jeep stuff. it is obvious who knows what they are talking about and who likes to flame and who just thinks they know everything.
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double
May 19, 2006, 11:24 PM
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Not to put you down in any way, but the questions you are asking here shows that you are not ready to do this on your own. Before you can safely setup this sort of top rope you need to learn about rapping and building anchors. A good book is Climbing from Gym to Crag. It's cheap and will teach you how to make the step from the gym to outdoors safer.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0898866820/sr=8-1/qid=1148080860/ref=sr_1_1/002-4482795-7992054?%5Fencoding=UTF8
Most of what you are proposing is fine. Just get some more knowledge before you try it, or preferably someone with experience to teach you.
Bryan
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buckyllama
May 20, 2006, 12:21 AM
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Here is how I'd do it:
1. Girth-hitch a pair of slings to your harness with biners on the ends.
2. Set up the webbing around the tree as you suggest, but instead of clipping a tied bight of rope, just run the rope through the biner and rap on both strands.
3. When you get to the anchor, use the slings on your harness to clip yourself to the anchor then take yourself off rappel.
4. Set up your anchor (don't use the rap rings as others mentioned)
5. clip one strand of the rope into your anchor so that it runs from the tree through your anchor from left to right and then down to the ground.
6. Grab the same strand above (to the left of) your anchor and start pulling it down from above so that the rope remains to the left of your anchor. Once the rope falls you should have the rope clipped just through your anchor with both ends on the ground.
7. Set up your rappel on both strands and rap to the ground.
This has the advantage that you don't need to hike back to the top. It has the disadvantage that you need to disassemble and reassemble the rap in the middle which might be more time consuming and risky depending on your abilities and the nature of the hike to the top. Choose your poision.
Your method would work. The only thing I'd add doing it your way is to anchor the end of the rope that gets fed through the anchors to the ground (clip it to a pack for example) so that it can't fly up and out of reach when you drop the other side from above.
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kounterclokwise
May 20, 2006, 5:34 AM
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people keep sayin that this isn't the place to get advice from... the beginners forum. what is it for then? you guys are basically discrediting yourselves. and your excuse is that i need to ask someone in person with the experience... if you arnt the right person to answer the question... don't post? Are you people not experienced enough answer simple questions from someone who is not confident in their own ideas to trust them on the climb?
obviously this does not apply to everyone on this forum, as some people genuinely know what they are saying, and critique my idea positively.
to those who say i don't know what I'm doing- i haven't done it yet, which is why I'm here, making sure i know what I'm doing before i try. you say "obviously you don't know what you're talking about". i know enough to know that you enjoy belittling a new-comer.
just share knowledge. dont call me stupid and leave the thread.
i like the idea of clipping a sling to the anchor and get off rappel and set the line, then reset the rappel on the newly positioned top rop line. saves a hike to the top to undo the fig8 at the top anchor.
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nanaimoclimber
May 20, 2006, 6:20 AM
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hey man its great you want to get out there and get started i learned everything i needed from that book "from the gym to the crag" your system seems quite complicated though and a lot of unnecessary hiking. two things always use anchors, rap rings are for rapping and tie knots 4' from the end of each rap line. a simple anchor is two lockers on top, gates facing inward a separate sling off each to two ovals(non lockers) reversed and opposed. don't use the " magic x" as its not redundant. burn some laps on the climb get some confidence in your system and your climbing then pull the rope and lead it then your world gets a lot easier
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bluenose
May 20, 2006, 1:57 PM
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I don't understand why you would try what you mentioned. I scanned the thread and didn't notice anyone suggest to just use the tree as and anchor and skip the rap rings altogether. Use the webbing and a pair of lockers (or non-lockers...personal preferences can decide) from the tree, more or less as you described for your rap anchor. Make sure the biners are over the edge so the rope doesn't have to take the edge, rope through the biners and toss both ends down.
If you are set on rapping, then rap this but you have to get over the edge...another issue, so with a short climb you can set it up to rap one strand by tripling the rope. One end anchored to the tree or another anchor from the tree, this you can rap, the rest goes through the main anchor point so you have a loop and a loose end, three roughly equal lengths. I use this sort of setup to allow my kids to practice rappelling while on a top belay (they weren't comfortable with a fireman's, conceptual difficulty).
When you are done, just undo everything, throw the rope around the tree and rap off of this and pull your rope...you should have a piece of old carpet or something to protect the tree though and maybe the rope if the edge could damage it, no sense in hurting the tree or the rope. If you go there often you could setup a rap station on the tree with rings and webbing and just leave it there too, if you really don't want the walk off.
Jeff.
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ecjohnson
May 20, 2006, 2:16 PM
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Hold on. Now you're jumping to conclusions. It's not that we think you're retarded and shouldn't eventually learn how to do this yourself. It's great that you want to get out there and climb, it's an awesome sport. However we are saying that based on what you are saying here, we cannot believe that you know exactly what you are doing. Maybe you know more than we think you do. But a lot can get lost in translation on forums. Before I ever set up my own top-ropes I learned to build anchors in every way possible on the ground. I also learned how to rap... again on the ground. Even though we weren't actually rapping, you see first hand how everything works, and what looks right and wrong. I had someone teach me all of this. If you go just on what we try to explain here, again, a lot can get lost in translation. You'll see as you get more experience that even in the Trad and Aid forums, someone will ask about something and it can be explained in words, inevetibly someone will ask for a diagram, even then it can be confusing. It's true that if you have to ask, and then still don't comprehend it, then you're not ready. The next thing is BUY A BOOK. Even though I am quite expereinced, my copy of "Mountaineering: Freedom of the Hills" gets used all the time. It has great diagrams. If I am confused about how to do something, I will get all my gear out and my book, and go to the back yard and set anchors or whatever I am confused about using trees and the book.
Eventually you will have the knowledge to improvise and be confident in what you think you are doing. But as you already learned, There was a much more simple way to do what you wanted to do. Please ask someone to show you how to do what you want to do, and do not do it yourself till you are 100% confident that you won't hurt yourelf.
Another thing. We are not belittling you, we truly don't want to see you get hurt, and sometimes we can be brutal, but we're just looking out for you.
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cfaulkner1180
May 20, 2006, 2:22 PM
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It seems to me that Bluenose has the best plan. By using the tree as your anchor point you are already below the anchor when you being to rap...which in my expeirence seems MUCH easier. Ju be sure the tree is nice and stable...b/c as I was once told if you pull an 18" diameter tree over it was just your time.
Don't let the folks who just call names and spray crap get under your skin. If you spend any time on here you will realize that many folks just spend their days spewing stuff for no reason, so no worries mate!
I can also recommend you trying a visit to Sandrock. Their are TONS of geat people who head there on the weekends who would be more than happy to help you out if needed it! Also, if you look around for message boards there are always trips heading up there you could piggy-back on.
Have fun and be safe!
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ecjohnson
May 20, 2006, 2:33 PM
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In reply to: It seems to me that Bluenose has the best plan. By using the tree as your anchor point you are already below the anchor when you being to rap...which in my expeirence seems MUCH easier.
Ok, I have had a perfect example set in my lap here. Yes that's a great idea, trees are great for anchors. HOWEVER, the way this is said, in my head I picture someone standing between the edge of the cliff and the anchor... and the anchor is weighted. That means that your power point will be above the edge of the cliff, and that while TRing your rope will be running over the edge of the cliff. To do this right, you would need to drop your power point over the edge of the cliff, and you'd have to down-climb a little bit to weight the anchor and rap. Bluenose even stated that the power point needs to be below the edge.
So a perfect example of somehitng sounding great, but the whole picture not being presented.
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kounterclokwise
May 20, 2006, 3:11 PM
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using the tree as the main Top rope anchor would work, i would just have to hike around instead of getting an easy rap down. I think it would be more safe to use 2 bolts compared to 1 tree? for redundancy. if one bolt goes its still on the other. but if the sling on the tree goes its game over. either way i use 2 slings on the tree.
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oldrnotboldr
May 20, 2006, 3:20 PM
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I'll second and third what otehrs are saying:
1) Go out with someone with plenty of experience first, especially to an area few people frequent (you mentioned never seeing anyone there).
2) Bluenose's idea is best. Your plan sounds pretty complicated for a beginner. Use the tree as the anchor and pad anything running over the edge. I think its Sproll company makes a nice little outfit for such a purpose.
The more complicated your setups the more room for mistakes to be made. Have fun,,,,, but be safe as well. One minor srew up and you're f*&%^
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boombewm
May 20, 2006, 4:04 PM
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Yep, TR from the tree
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cactusedd
May 20, 2006, 4:39 PM
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Dude,
Good question; better to ask now then try something and deck. And, yes, pretty much anything posted on this site is going to get flamed. As it was explained to me, "this site is full of vocal a--holes."
As all new and beginning climbers can relate to, learning how to set up anchors and deal with systems for the first time can be both very frustrating and cumbersome, especially if you're going at it on your own. The intent, however, behind all of these folks telling you to find an experienced climber is simply your own safety. While the risks inherent in climbing are apparent, there is plenty that can be done to mitigate the hazards, but reading threads on this site isn't among them. This type of forum is great for questions about gear and things of that nature, but is certainly not intended for instructional purposes. Bottom line is that people here are just trying to look out for you.
But you're going to do what you're going to do regardless of what anyone on this site says. That said, in my opinion, buckyllama's instructions were pretty spot on. Use the tree for your initial rap into the anchors, but that's it. No need to deal with the extra rope drag and potential edge using the tree.
Regards,
Edd
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ninja_climber
May 20, 2006, 5:03 PM
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Screw the rope...you live in Alabama...Run to HP40 NOW!!
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