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fracture
Dec 9, 2005, 6:37 PM
Post #76 of 83
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Registered: Jun 13, 2003
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In reply to: In reply to: I understand this. My view is that the FA'ist does not own the route, and that the retrobolters have an equal claim as everyone else who actually climbs in the area. If the FA'ist no longer climbs in the area, then retrobolters have an infinitely greater claim than the FA does. Infinitely. Restated, the FA has no claim at all. That idea is still being rejected at the sharp end of a cold chisel. The FAist is perfectly able to come back and chop chop chop.
Ok, point taken. However, the degree to which their claim is relevant is also related to the likelyhood they will even know about the new bolts.
Regarding the situation I described earlier: Duane Raleigh expressed that he was upset to learn that Real Gravy (not his route, in this case) at E-Rock had been retro'd. Ironically, this happened something like 15 years ago.... No offense to DR (and I definitely respect that guy), but if he doesn't even learn about it for over a decade, I really don't care if it upsets him---it's none of his business and obviously didn't affect him.
Another humorous thing along these lines: an FA'ist who put up a few routes which took gear placements at a sport crag I climb at said on an internet site a while back that he was glad his routes were still left in their original state. Heh. They've been "modified" for quite a long time now. (Not by me, btw. I've never placed a retro-bolt). There's an even funnier twist to this story, though: the crag has now been purchased to become a county park, and bolting there is now controlled through an agreement with the county. So removing those retro bolts will not be happening, and is probably a crime too.
I just find the whole thing supremely hilarious. I like rock climbing. But all this FA'ist ownership stuff---at least when it is leveraged by people living out of state who haven't been to the crag in over a decade---is pretty much a joke. (Am I trolling now?)
:D
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dingus
Dec 9, 2005, 6:56 PM
Post #77 of 83
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Registered: Dec 16, 2002
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I like that the bold climbs of Dresden and Czech sandstone climbing have retained their bold antiquity. I like the preservation of Tuolumne. I like clipping bolts at Table Mtn and the retrobolt on Higgins Serenity Crack bothered me not in the least.
I'm not a fundy on this. I sorta like it all myself. But if there is room in our world for 1, 10, 100, 1000, 10,000 "To Bolt or Not to Be's" then there has to be *some* room for a few Bachar Yerians too.
The reason the BY stands unaltered to this day is that very loose system of respect was and remains at work here. Everyone KNOWS additional bolts will get the chop, they KNOW IT. So no one does it, score one small victory for tradition.
Raleigh seems 15 years too late, I totally agree. And as I said, I wouldn't like it if the only area in 500 miles was locked up with 25 year old death routes either. The community DOES have a voice I just recommend that it begin from a position of respect for those who preceeded us.
Cheers man, I gotta head out
DMT
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healyje
Dec 10, 2005, 2:32 PM
Post #79 of 83
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Registered: Aug 22, 2004
Posts: 4204
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In reply to: Minimizing their number was not to create mind games for others but leave the rock marked with as few bolts as possible. I realize my attitude may seem quaint in the era of sport routes, but we are products of our times and mentors, and that was the attitude instilled in me.
This definitively states that no one intentionally "put up a death route" or was trying to show what a bad ass they were. And the reason to respect this existing route in the way it was established is that it is representative of climbing in the time it was put up.
Also, we're really talking two different issues here - legacy and access. "Legacy" is what this route represents and if you ask today's top climbers I suspect you'd find they have infinite respect for the folks who's shoulders they stood on to get where they are today. Maybe ask a Tommy, Steph, or Topher what they think if you really want an opinion from this generation; but then again maybe that wouldn't work because they could simply hike it without giving a rats ass about the retro'ed pro - who knows.
"Access" in this thread's context is clearly about who can climb what, and at what level of safety. Isn't that really a bit of a sliding scale? And who determines it? Why only retro one bolt and not six? Retro one and you might not deck, but some 5.7 climber trying to step up might. Some other 5.8 climber might want a go on it, wants to be completely safe, and thinks six new bolts would allow him to do it not only without decking, but without a serious fall of any kind. Just who decides? And wouldn't you be acting as some sort of "elitist prick" putting in only one retro and denying the route to someone else?
And where does this "Retro for Access" mentality stop? If we're really talking access how about a via ferrata on it - where does the sliding scale stop? I know, I know, that's extreme and "you" are just talking one bolt - but what about the next guy that wants two? The problem with the application of the "Access" argument is it can be wielded by anyone against any route. It really does risk every route being retro'ed or established (as a community service no doubt) to a level of "lowest common denominator" protection. And while you may not be able to make what you see as the enormous leap between these two "extremes", to me it's painfully obvious, if not unavoidable, that one inevitably and inexorably leads to the other once it starts. It might only be one route, but over time that's how they tend to go - one by one...
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joshklingbeil
Dec 10, 2005, 3:30 PM
Post #80 of 83
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Registered: Jul 6, 2002
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Keep the cliff clean chop all retro bolts not authorized by the FA party.
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joshklingbeil
Dec 10, 2005, 3:30 PM
Post #81 of 83
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Registered: Jul 6, 2002
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Fuck the retro bolts. Keep the cliff clean chop all retro bolts not authorized by the FA party.
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jv
Dec 10, 2005, 5:21 PM
Post #82 of 83
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Registered: Sep 26, 2003
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Well said healyje.
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superbum
Jun 19, 2006, 6:10 AM
Post #83 of 83
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Registered: Sep 19, 2002
Posts: 822
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well...hmmm.
We'll see. I am going to do the route in a coupla days. I will then have some experiance to back up my opinions (which have largely already formed...). OK, see you then.
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