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dbrayack
Aug 31, 2006, 6:33 PM
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I have a feeling that it was probably the same person who had them swipped before, I did a little seaching (focusing on LITTLE) and found the original thread, I've contacted the dude.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/...iewtopic.php?t=80777
-Danno
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kachoong
Aug 31, 2006, 6:38 PM
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In reply to: My options were: 1. Remove Draws 2. Don't Remove Draws 3. Educate/inform the community. :idea: I choose 3, hence the post.
Number 1 and then number 3.
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nnowinowski
Aug 31, 2006, 6:41 PM
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the person who had them up before did the route months ago and walked under the very route looked up and wonderd out loud whose draws they were? last weekend!
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dbrayack
Aug 31, 2006, 6:46 PM
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Let me rephrase, i send a PM to the dude, I didn't hear back yet.
-Danno
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banjobob
Aug 31, 2006, 7:25 PM
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:twisted: :!: :x
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banjobob
Aug 31, 2006, 7:53 PM
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what needs to be discussed is not the fixed draws but the total !@#$@!#
that has gone around to Sport routes that are 10 years old and decided that they should not have bolts anymore. recently bolts have been removed from Orange Oswald at summersville by a coward who does not even consult the public, locals, or the guy who did the first ascent, before applying his own ethics. he feels that because he is an AMGA certified instructor that he can hide behind their banner and is above the law. when in fact he is giving the AMGA and climbers a bad reputation in the eyes of the park service at the new. he does nothing constructive for the area even when invited to help with trails, rebolting, etc. yet he and his guide service account for a fair amount of erosion and usage in the gorge. infact he drills anchors in the middle of "Chasing spiders to the right" at Junkyard so that he can guide the bottom half in the rain but regulates on the rest of the community for having sport climbs. lets forget about the fix draws and reel that guy in!!! down with the J.T. A ROCK SOLID LOSER!
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nnowinowski
Aug 31, 2006, 8:32 PM
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Wow that is pretty personal. How about Eye of Mordor did he do that too? :P
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bsf
Aug 31, 2006, 10:09 PM
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Ha ha!!! Looks like Peace and Love prevailing in beautiful Fayette-Nam!!! What’s the matter? You can’t climb because of the heat, humidity, and non-stop rain so you resort to bashing one another on the compooter instead??? What’s truly hilarious is that you’re probably all sitting at Cathedral right now writing about each other from across the room!
In case this climbing business is too complicated to figure out on your own here are a few guidelines to help you out:
1. Don’t put bolts where removable gear can be placed.
If you do, don’t be surprised to see your bolts removed sometime in the future, possibly even 10 years down the road.
If you want everything to be easy, mindless pulling, find a gym. Or pick a new sport. Climbing can be tough and, don’t feel bad, it’s not for everyone. I hear golfers get to drive around in carts and let other people carry their gear around. Start there.
2. Don’t chip or glue holds onto the rock.
If you do, don’t be surprised if someone removes the glue or fills in the holes, especially if the route can be done without said alterations.
It’s not cool, you’re not being creative, and yes, everyone can tell it’s manufactured.
If this doesn’t help clear things up you likely need to:
A. Actually climb a rock. Go with a friend it’s even funner than it looks! And by all means try the one with the fixed draws on it... it's easier that way!
B. Get laid. Go with a friend it’s even funner than it looks!
If A. doesn’t help, try B. One or the other is bound to clear up your attitude and put things into perspective. Or, heck, go wild and do'em both at the same time, just be sure to use a gri-gri. (Or a munter-mule if you "just don' trust that grigri" It is french after all.)
Because what looks ever worse than (GASP!) tiny bits of nylon hanging from an obscure section of cliffline that the NPS never even bothers to visit is a bunch of climbers wanking off about it on the intercyberwebnet.
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banjobob
Sep 1, 2006, 1:54 PM
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if climbing was as simple in all dimensions as you lead us to believe than why are there organizations like the access fund dealing with things called access problems and areas getting closed down. in some places it's as much a crime to place a bolt as it is to remove it due to management plans that are in place to protect climber safety. with the case of orange Oswald, the entire cliff can and has been done trad but i think you would be hard pressed to find support for removing all the bolts. so the issue is where and how you draw the line. and if the line is muddy than is it worth it to remove a select few when they all could go. i mean the bolt remover at the gorge is choosing to split hairs by distinguishing a difference between vertical and horizontal cracks. he willingly held onto and climbed past and clipped next to horizontal cracks on the route to get to the ones he felt should be removed. if vertical slots should not get bolts than why has the horizontal slots been deemed acceptable? personally i think the gunks have it correct because there is no difference given the the orientation of the protect able slot, crack, pocket, whatever if it takes gear. leave it alone. but when a standard is unequally held and enforced by the person regulating what good is it. why draw a line is you keep changing it and stepping over it. i know in a perfect world.... blah blah blah. but if climbing means something to people than why not discuss the issues debate and help reach common ground so it continues. no one takes issues seriously when it is not in their backyard but they love to go visit. and yes to answer your question it is raining.
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redpointitorfall
Sep 1, 2006, 3:55 PM
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Dan
Sent you a PM...as nnowinowski said I have see the draws.....not mine
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sick_tom
Sep 1, 2006, 7:54 PM
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Dan
The quickdraws are not permanent, fixed draws. They are Mike William's quickdraws. He is working on the route and is close to sending. He used screw links on the draws so that they would be less likely to be stolen (something which happens way too much at the New). And they were all old leaver links taken off other routes, so if they did get stolen Mike would not lose as much.
Tom
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curator
Sep 1, 2006, 10:41 PM
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They're not fixed draws they are my draws. (mike williams) When I send the route they will be relocated to a different route at the new. As stated before it is acceptable and legal practice to leave draws on active projects. Why you're first inclination would be to rap down and "remove" them is beyond me. I had draws stolen off of leap of faith last year and it pissed me off. Just to clear things up lets examine what is fixed and what is booty.
A string of draws on a sport route: not yours.
a bail biner left at the crux of a route: take it.
a quick link: take it
a single biner on a bolt at the base of a roof: not yours. This is likely a cleaner biner left so that climbers can lower off and clean the lower half of the route without taking a death pendulum. Interestingly they disappear all the time.
a single biner left on the last bolt below wicked rusty anchors: not yours.
while cleaning and lowering this biner "backs up" the anchor. Don't take it.
A single fixed draw at a very difficult or reachy clip: not yours for obvious reasons.
The new river gorge: not yours. It is not the job of any individual climber to police, manage, or monitor the crag. This is a big playground. Let me play the games I want to. As for the slew of people that voted to steal my draws. You are all idiots and God doesn't love you anymore.
Banjo Bob for president!
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neoamhas
Sep 1, 2006, 11:00 PM
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i second that emotion.
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el_jerko
Sep 2, 2006, 12:24 AM
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After carefully weighing all the fats and opinions stated here there is only one reasonable answer; take half the draws.
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j_ung
Sep 2, 2006, 12:39 AM
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In reply to: They're not fixed draws they are my draws. (mike williams) When I send the route they will be relocated to a different route at the new. As stated before it is acceptable and legal practice to leave draws on active projects. Why you're first inclination would be to rap down and "remove" them is beyond me. I had draws stolen off of leap of faith last year and it pissed me off. Just to clear things up lets examine what is fixed and what is booty. A string of draws on a sport route: not yours. a bail biner left at the crux of a route: take it. a quick link: take it a single biner on a bolt at the base of a roof: not yours. This is likely a cleaner biner left so that climbers can lower off and clean the lower half of the route without taking a death pendulum. Interestingly they disappear all the time. a single biner left on the last bolt below wicked rusty anchors: not yours. while cleaning and lowering this biner "backs up" the anchor. Don't take it. A single fixed draw at a very difficult or reachy clip: not yours for obvious reasons. The new river gorge: not yours. It is not the job of any individual climber to police, manage, or monitor the crag. This is a big playground. Let me play the games I want to. As for the slew of people that voted to steal my draws. You are all idiots and God doesn't love you anymore. Banjo Bob for president!
Mike, I think there's actually a bug in the poll. I don't think a slew of people voted to take your draws. Thanks for explaining. If anybody asks me why they're up there, I'll pass on that they're project draws. But be aware, while it may seem like a good idea to use quicklinks because they're less likely to be stolen, it makes them look like fixed draws, which are more likely to be "removed," since fixed draws are now illegal. And thanks to Dan for doing the research necessary to find out what's up.
As for Jim Taylor and the Summersville bolt chopping, I highly recommend that you find Jim and tell him exactly what you think, in a rational, adult fashion, of course. Personally, I agree with Jim that the route that got chopped should never have been bolted, but I hate to see a vigilante thinking that he speaks for the community, too. Most of us up here are a good bit more mature. :wink:
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caughtinside
Sep 2, 2006, 9:16 PM
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banjo bob has my write-in vote.
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climbsomething
Sep 3, 2006, 3:07 AM
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In reply to: I just believe in taking you sh*t home at the end of the day.
Yet just before:
In reply to: I say pull them...it's just like trash cleanup, IMO (of course, leave them at the base or something). |
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dbrayack
Sep 5, 2006, 11:58 AM
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Dude, I have no idea who you are, but really, RC.com isn't the place to be dissing people personally, I don't care how much you dislike someone or their actions, this is no place to be directing personal attacks.
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banjobob
Sep 5, 2006, 2:07 PM
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dude, by posing a question about a specific route with specific draws on them, a general poll or question becomes an attack on the person who hung those draws. what's the difference. the poor guy had to get online to defend his actions because you gave details. i have yet to read a forum on this site that doesn't talk smack in some way. all in good fun. even when some poor newbie has a legitimate question that we have all had to ask at some point when we started climbing, they get hammered. i mean you titled your forum " I want to pull fixed draws at NRG" then named the route and draws specifically. that seems just as personal because you are still singling someone out and the problem you personally have with his actions. really no difference maybe we are more alike than you think.
if i hurt your feelings i apologize. if the kitchen is too hot...........
and P>S> you do know me I'm your neighbor we talked the other day.
have good one. tell JT i said hello.
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pettsnjam
Sep 5, 2006, 5:17 PM
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50 to 50
WOW that's a split decision!
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mr8615
Sep 5, 2006, 6:37 PM
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Now, if only we could take all the hot air and turn it into energy, perhaps this Saturday at the trail day? Dan, thanks for the reasonable, investigative approach. A friend of mine 'cleaned' Matt's draws from the previous thread, they were returned when he realized his mistake. I personally can't wait to see the fixed draws throughout the NRG go, webbing and quicklinks are mank, chains (where necessary) will both improve safety and aesthetics, IMHO.
See you all Saturday, you all have a vested interest in the New, so I'm certain that you'll be there, right?
Mark
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toejam
Sep 5, 2006, 8:17 PM
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The poll is not tied, the poll software for the forum is buggy.
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j_ung
Sep 5, 2006, 8:54 PM
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In reply to: Now, if only we could take all the hot air and turn it into energy, perhaps this Saturday at the trail day? Dan, thanks for the reasonable, investigative approach. A friend of mine 'cleaned' Matt's draws from the previous thread, they were returned when he realized his mistake. I personally can't wait to see the fixed draws throughout the NRG go, webbing and quicklinks are mank, chains (where necessary) will both improve safety and aesthetics, IMHO. See you all Saturday, you all have a vested interest in the New, so I'm certain that you'll be there, right? Mark
Excellent post! Thanks, Mark.
In reply to: dude, by posing a question about a specific route with specific draws on them, a general poll or question becomes an attack on the person who hung those draws. what's the difference. the poor guy had to get online to defend his actions because you gave details. i have yet to read a forum on this site that doesn't talk smack in some way. all in good fun. even when some poor newbie has a legitimate question that we have all had to ask at some point when we started climbing, they get hammered. i mean you titled your forum " I want to pull fixed draws at NRG" then named the route and draws specifically. that seems just as personal because you are still singling someone out and the problem you personally have with his actions. really no difference maybe we are more alike than you think. if i hurt your feelings i apologize. if the kitchen is too hot........... and P>S> you do know me I'm your neighbor we talked the other day. have good one. tell JT i said hello.
Shawn, I understand you feel strongly about bolt chopping at the New. We all do, including Danno, who is most definitely as against it as you are.
Please try not to take it out on him. His question of who put these particular draws up is reasonable, considering their resemblence to fixed, rather than project draws. While it may seem like a personal affront to Mike, knowing Dan, I'm reasonably certain it is not. And, considering the Park's stated policy against fixed draws, I think it was legitimate. Now we know the truth. Problem solved. And hopefully, if somebody else mistakes them for what they aren't, that person will check here first, learn the truth and let them be.
Hell, we all live within five miles of each other. We can talk this out over beers, if you want. :D
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mr8615
Sep 5, 2006, 9:05 PM
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In reply to: [jealousy] Hell, we all live within five miles of each other. We can talk this out over beers, if you want. :D [/jealousy]
There better be some beers involved this weekend!
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