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ephemeral
Sep 7, 2002, 12:33 AM
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Ok, I was always taught to take the tail of a figure 8 from your harness and tie it into a barrel knot (some call it a double fishermans or double simple).
At the gym, they are using a new and improved method of weaving the tail back thru the figure 8 to capure it.
No one seems to know if this new knot has a name. Anyone out there know what it's called?
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climbsomething
Sep 7, 2002, 12:42 AM
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I've seen it done too, but don't know if it has a name...
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fitz
Sep 7, 2002, 12:45 AM
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Actually, there was some discussion about this in, I think, one of the AMGA newsletters. A fair number of people felt that feeding the tail through had several drawbacks. First, it diminishes the 8's ability to be visually verified with high reliability at a distance. Second, some feedback methods encourage a tail of just under 6" (the minimum tail recommended by the UIAA).
Personally, I think that the first is a more realistic concern. If you are going to bother with a knot that is not instantly verifiable, even when viewed from a distance, consider going with a double bowline with a Yosemite finish instead. It's strong, hangs well for chimneys and offwidths, and is much easier to untie after loading.
I personally experimented with tying an 8 on a bite, then folding the whole loop back through the knot to make three equalizable anchor clip in points. After a few tries, I gave it up. The knot is hard to visually verify, and the method also uses a lot of rope. I went back to more conventional rope tie in for light and fast alpine climbing (FWIW, I'm a big fan of cord-oh-lay (I love annoying the French) on regular multi-pitch).
-jjf
[ This Message was edited by: fitz on 2002-09-06 17:47 ]
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addiroids
Sep 7, 2002, 12:54 AM
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You may be talking about the "figure 9" or more commonly called the "Yosemite Finish". It is safe with 4 inches of tail because the knot cinches up on the tail when you fall. It's all I use anymore for a backup.
The figure 8 with 3 loops is for anchors as the previous poster said. Good, but it does use a lot of rope. Better to go with clove hitches.
TRADitionally yours,
Cali Dirtbag
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jt512
Sep 7, 2002, 1:00 AM
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It's not new. We call it a "sport lock-off" or an "extra pass." I think it is superior to the fisherman's lock-off for three reasons:
1. It is more secure. A fisherman's can come undone, especially on a new rope that doesn't hold knots well. The extra pass isn't going to come out.
2. It keeps the tail pointed down out of the way.
3. After falling, it makes the knot easier to untie.
-Jay
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climber-x
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Sep 7, 2002, 1:16 AM
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Right on Jay! You saved me from having to say the exact thing
X
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snapier
Sep 7, 2002, 1:18 AM
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Does anyone have a picture of this so I can visualize this?
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catga86
Sep 7, 2002, 2:01 AM
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I never have done it any other way.... I have heard it is more safe.
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pelliott
Sep 7, 2002, 2:27 AM
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A Yosemite finish is different from a figure nine. Here is a figure nine.
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rickoldskool
Sep 7, 2002, 5:15 AM
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Here is a link with a very good set of pictures. Here is one that shows the knot.
Here is the link to the whole page if you wish to see more.
>Figure Eight with Extra Pass
Here's a link to the Yosemite Bowline.
>Yosemite Bowline
Checkout the "Figure nine" while your there.
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rrrADAM
Sep 7, 2002, 5:25 AM
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That's the knot I've used since I've been climbing.
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karlbaba
Sep 7, 2002, 5:33 AM
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Hate to take pot shots at sacred cows, but extra knots beyond the figure eight are to tuck away extra tail and not ensure extra safety. A figure eight will not untie itself while you're climbing unless you tie a really loose knot with a tiny amount of tail.
That being said, I like being able to visually verify a tie-in knot. Just this week, I noticed my partner had tied in incorrectly, that's what I don't like about running the tail back into the knot.
Peace
karl
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dustinap
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Sep 7, 2002, 5:40 AM
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Figure eight with an extra pass
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rickoldskool
Sep 7, 2002, 6:03 AM
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Sorry Karl, maybe you should reconsider that comment about the sacred cow. I pulled this from the Fish website.
BD Test Doc # TD 15025 4-28-99 Tom Jones
Load Speed 8"/minute. 10mm steel pins top and bottom.
Test was performed using a slightly used 10.5mm Yellow rope. A figure 9 knot
was tied forming a short loop. Two pins were inserted into the loop and
pulled apart. Performance was compared to a Figure 8 knot tested under the
same conditions.
Fig 9 Results: The rope stretched and the knot tightened as usual. Unlike a
fig 8 knot, the fig 9 does not creep down the free ends - the knot
essentially has a built in backup knot. Under loading, the knot "looks like"
two knots - a front knot and a back knot. At about 2900 lbs, the front knot
inverts over the back knot, and the load drops to about 2700 lbs. Loading
continues and the load increases fairly smoothly up to 4000 lbs, where the
sheath breaks on one side. Max load achieved was 4398 lbs. Neglible creep at
the free ends was experienced.
Fig 8 (with backup knot ) Results: loads up and stretches. At 1500 lbs, the
knot inverts, and the load drops to about 1000 lbs. Reloads slowly, but it
creeps along the free ends at a load of about 1000 lbs until it hits the
backup knot. Then it loads fairly evenly to 4509 lbs where one side of the
sheath breaks. Max load was 4509 lbs.
My Conclusions:
A. Figure 8 knot should be used with a backup knot.
B. Figure 9 knot is essentially a backed up figure 8.
C. Maybe I'll use a fig 9 next time.
Tom Jones
Black Diamond Equipment, Ltd.
Disclaimer: These are my personal opinions and recommendations, and may or may
not be shared by Black Diamond.
I completely agree with the idea of being able to visually inspect a knot at a glance. Climbing safely is about managing risk, not adding to it.
I should have also said, it was nice running into you in the valley thursday. Peace
[ This Message was edited by: rickoldskool on 2002-09-06 23:11 ]
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jt512
Sep 7, 2002, 6:19 PM
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It is just as easy to inspect a fig 8 with an extra pass as it is to inspect a fig 8 without one.
-Jay
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clymber
Sep 7, 2002, 9:24 PM
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Ive heard it called a Mountaineer back up
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mattiem
Sep 7, 2002, 10:01 PM
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The picture in rick old school's post is not a figure 9. In his picture the tail come out goes around the loose end of the rope and then back through the bottom loop of the 8. In a figure 9 you DO NOT go around the loose end of the rope, you just go back through the bottom loop. Try both ways and you will see that even with just a small bounce test of a few feet the knot pictured will fold the top of the eight and the tail will slide a bit. If you tie the 9 the knot cinches on the tail immediatley and the knot doesn't fold. Its a small but important difference.
matt
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lilred
Sep 7, 2002, 10:37 PM
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A girl from the gym in Denver fell 60 in Rifle canyon last week cuz her fig 8 w pass came undone...
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fitz
Sep 7, 2002, 10:39 PM
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Rickoldschool, FWIW, the UIAA has some published drop tests and concluded that, provided at least a 6" tail is used, a properly tied, pre-tensioned figure 8 should not fail at or below the 12 kN impact 'max' impact force. IE, the backed up 8 might be stronger, but a well tied 8 is already pretty strong.
JT512, I'd have to disagree. Standing next to each other on a sport climb, the extra pass propably is not visually confusing, but from any distance, or in less than ideal viewing circumstances, I think that the non symmetric variations are all harder to inspect. But, then again, my eyes aren't what they used to be!
lilred, I am not disputing your report, but I would bet good money that the failed 8 was either improperly tied, had an extra short tail, or was not properly pretensioned (each strand pulled hard individually). I've noticed a lot of gym and sport climbers do not really cinch up their knots very tight around here. Unfortunately, these are the same climbers who are using thinner lines with larger working elongations.
-jjf
[ This Message was edited by: fitz on 2002-09-07 19:23 ]
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jt512
Sep 8, 2002, 2:54 AM
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Yeah, I have to agree that the knot could not possibly have been tied correctly.
-Jay
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punk
Sep 8, 2002, 10:47 PM
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That is the only way I tie In with eight for the following reasons:
1 Less clatter next to my eight
2 easier to untie if it has being weighted
I know that it take some getting use to…but after u done it couple of times, it is no brainier
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bouldertoad
Sep 9, 2002, 12:21 AM
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Just use a double bowline and you will be fine..........I also never tie any kind of backup knot when I do use a figure 8....I figure if i need a backup the I am in some deep trouble......
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punk
Sep 9, 2002, 1:23 AM
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What I’m trying to say is what I do with the excess rope on the tail…I totally with bouldertoad on if the 8 in bad shape so do u
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redox
Sep 9, 2002, 2:47 AM
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I use the Yosemite Finish aka the Sport Lock-off everytime i go on a lead. If I'm following someone's line, I tie a regular Fig 8 with a double fisherman's backup. I dont know why. Hell, if I'm already tied in with a Yose Finish, I'll use it. I have been using it since I started climbing, and I have taken many a fall on it. It *REALLY* helps you untie the damned knot after a long fall.
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tradguy
Sep 9, 2002, 8:59 PM
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Fitz,
A friend of mine was taking an AMGA guide class, and he showed the guides an easy way to make that equalizable 3-point anchor tie in by folding and looping back the rope through the figure 8 on a bite. I can't really describe it with words, but he showed me how and it's really pretty easy and quick. The funny part was that the AMGA guys teaching the class had never seen anyone do it like that before, and they were impressed enough they started calling in the Schaar knot (that's my friend's last name).
I use the Yosemite finish (or whatever it's called) and agree that it is plenty sound. And yes, it does make the knot easier to untie after taking a fall on it. I personally feel more comforatable pulling a bit more of the tail through (thus leaving a smaller loop) than shown in the picture previously in this thread.
[ This Message was edited by: tradguy on 2002-09-09 14:00 ]
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