|
zeke_sf
Nov 22, 2006, 1:28 AM
Post #26 of 47
(1824 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 28, 2006
Posts: 18730
|
update: Kolby has since invented a new form of pro, but, like his uncle, is keeping it on the downlow so he can nab the first clean ascents of features that were formerly only protectable via bolts. his lordship over the rapelling domain remains unchallenged.
|
|
|
|
|
macblaze
Nov 22, 2006, 2:37 AM
Post #27 of 47
(1812 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 23, 2005
Posts: 807
|
How about I ask teh question again in a different form cause I'm kinda curious too.
Way back when, when they were first establishing lines, if the guy with the FA could do anything at the top for anchors he wanted, what would he do?
A) whip out his handy pocket bolter and put in some bolts
B) leave it clean and pristine for someone else to climb (or get stuck at the top of)
C) leave a single manky piton as a sign of his manhood
D) leave behind a couple of # 6 camalots cause he's richer than sh_t
or
E) do something realistic, which is the answer I'd like to hear...
|
|
|
|
|
ctardi
Nov 22, 2006, 3:16 AM
Post #28 of 47
(1803 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 8, 2004
Posts: 1278
|
You forgot about the bolt gun. 
|
|
|
|
|
alexmac
Nov 22, 2006, 3:19 AM
Post #29 of 47
(1804 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2005
Posts: 550
|
In reply to: How about I ask teh question again in a different form cause I'm kinda curious too. Way back when, when they were first establishing lines, if the guy with the FA could do anything at the top for anchors he wanted, what would he do? A) whip out his handy pocket bolter and put in some bolts B) leave it clean and pristine for someone else to climb (or get stuck at the top of) C) leave a single manky piton as a sign of his manhood D) leave behind a couple of # 6 camalots cause he's richer than sh_t or E) do something realistic, which is the answer I'd like to hear...
A) if he/she owns the land, has permission from the land owner or park narks.
B) Is my preferenece.
|
|
|
|
|
petsfed
Nov 22, 2006, 4:50 AM
Post #30 of 47
(1791 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 8599
|
Alexmac,
lets make this clear to cut down on future flaming: the question was "can an area developer place rappell bolts if he feels them necessary?"
Your answer (summed up) was "No, you stupid n00b, there are no new routes to be put up, so why would you, a n00b, want to bolt, you ethics free retrobolting n00b?" I paraphrase, but that was the meat of it, and you still failed to actually answer the question substantially.
And I really gotta ask, where do you get off claiming that there are no new routes to be done? I can think of at least two primo lines at my local crag just waiting to be done. And its been a popular crag since the 50s.
Furthermore, I know of entire cliffs in Colorado (a fairly "climbed out" area), Utah (same case) and Wyoming (less so) that have never been touched, only looked at. Believe me, there's climbing left to be done. LOADS.
(This post was edited by petsfed on Nov 22, 2006, 4:56 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
bbziger
Nov 22, 2006, 5:26 AM
Post #31 of 47
(1777 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 26, 2003
Posts: 92
|
In reply to: update: Kolby has since invented a new form of pro, but, like his uncle, is keeping it on the downlow so he can nab the first clean ascents of features that were formerly only protectable via bolts. his lordship over the rapelling domain remains unchallenged.
This post alone makes the entire thread worthwhile...
Bruce
|
|
|
|
|
alexmac
Nov 22, 2006, 1:52 PM
Post #32 of 47
(1755 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2005
Posts: 550
|
In reply to: Alexmac, ---- snip----- Furthermore, I know of entire cliffs in Colorado (a fairly "climbed out" area), Utah (same case) and Wyoming (less so) that have never been touched, only looked at. Believe me, there's climbing left to be done. LOADS.
Oh I agree there are lots of routes, just I don't think any idiot with a drill gun and a couple of bolts from Canadian Tire / Home depot should bolt a route "just cause".
A set of bolts at the top are ideal if the person can place them correctly and use the right materials.
As for these routes you know of. Do you have permisson from the land owner (do you know who owns the land)?
Are you sure the landover wants climbers on their land or that there is not some ban on climbers for eco reasons if government land etc.
I have no objection to bolting if its done correctly.
|
|
|
|
|
petsfed
Nov 22, 2006, 5:07 PM
Post #33 of 47
(1728 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 25, 2002
Posts: 8599
|
In reply to: In reply to: Alexmac, ---- snip----- Furthermore, I know of entire cliffs in Colorado (a fairly "climbed out" area), Utah (same case) and Wyoming (less so) that have never been touched, only looked at. Believe me, there's climbing left to be done. LOADS. Oh I agree there are lots of routes, just I don't think any idiot with a drill gun and a couple of bolts from Canadian Tire / Home depot should bolt a route "just cause". A set of bolts at the top are ideal if the person can place them correctly and use the right materials. As for these routes you know of. Do you have permisson from the land owner (do you know who owns the land)? Are you sure the landover wants climbers on their land or that there is not some ban on climbers for eco reasons if government land etc. I have no objection to bolting if its done correctly.
Yeah, its all on BLM land, so as long as we don't make any major changes (like dynamite the cliff) we can do whatever. The rest of the world is not necessarily as restricted as Ontario. Indeed, the regions I'm thinking of, they really are more concerned about somebody drilling for oil without authorization (for taxation purposes) than somebody causing an eco-problem. At least in the areas I'm from, bolts don't get areas closed, bolt wars get areas closed.
(This post was edited by petsfed on Nov 22, 2006, 5:21 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
reg
Nov 22, 2006, 5:29 PM
Post #34 of 47
(1716 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 10, 2004
Posts: 1560
|
In reply to: {1)} Lets say I had a crag in my backyard suitable for trad climbing. Could I not do that? {2)} Is that not what is usually done when someone has a first ascent or establishes a new line?
1) if it 's your stone drill away
2) no - well yes if your establashing a sport route. trad lines are just that. some times the FA will put in a bolt or two to protect a blank section or X rated section with bad gear below - sometimes not.
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Nov 22, 2006, 5:52 PM
Post #35 of 47
(1706 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: How about I ask teh question again in a different form cause I'm kinda curious too. Way back when, when they were first establishing lines, if the guy with the FA could do anything at the top for anchors he wanted, what would he do? A) whip out his handy pocket bolter and put in some bolts B) leave it clean and pristine for someone else to climb (or get stuck at the top of) C) leave a single manky piton as a sign of his manhood D) leave behind a couple of # 6 camalots cause he's richer than sh_t or E) do something realistic, which is the answer I'd like to hear...
If there was a reasonable walk-off he would use it. If not, he would rappel. If there were available natural features, he would put a sling around the feature and rappel from the sling (possibly using a rappel ring). If there were no such features, he'd have a choice between leaving gear and placing one or two rappel bolts. If the route was multi-pitch, with intermediate bolted hanging belay stations, then he would be more inclined to add rap bolts at the summit, since the intermediate bolted belay stations would be convenient to use as intermediate rappel stations.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
macblaze
Nov 22, 2006, 6:13 PM
Post #36 of 47
(1697 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 23, 2005
Posts: 807
|
In reply to: If there was a reasonable walk-off he would use it. If not, he would rappel. If there were available natural features, he would put a sling around the feature and rappel from the sling (possibly using a rappel ring). If there were no such features, he'd have a choice between leaving gear and placing one or two rappel bolts. If the route was multi-pitch, with intermediate bolted hanging belay stations, then he would be more inclined to add rap bolts at the summit, since the intermediate bolted belay stations would be convenient to use as intermediate rappel stations. Jay
Ah... an answer that makes sense. Although it does beg the question of when the drill comes out. I guess after having left the gear behind he/she might come back at a later date and bolt the rappel station for future users... right?
|
|
|
|
|
alexmac
Nov 22, 2006, 6:27 PM
Post #37 of 47
(1693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2005
Posts: 550
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Alexmac, ---- snip----- Furthermore, I know of entire cliffs in Colorado (a fairly "climbed out" area), Utah (same case) and Wyoming (less so) that have never been touched, only looked at. Believe me, there's climbing left to be done. LOADS. Oh I agree there are lots of routes, just I don't think any idiot with a drill gun and a couple of bolts from Canadian Tire / Home depot should bolt a route "just cause". A set of bolts at the top are ideal if the person can place them correctly and use the right materials. As for these routes you know of. Do you have permisson from the land owner (do you know who owns the land)? Are you sure the landover wants climbers on their land or that there is not some ban on climbers for eco reasons if government land etc. I have no objection to bolting if its done correctly. Yeah, its all on BLM land, so as long as we don't make any major changes (like dynamite the cliff) we can do whatever. The rest of the world is not necessarily as restricted as Ontario. Indeed, the regions I'm thinking of, they really are more concerned about somebody drilling for oil without authorization (for taxation purposes) than somebody causing an eco-problem. At least in the areas I'm from, bolts don't get areas closed, bolt wars get areas closed.
I can think of many areas where bolting and lack of respect for the land has caused places to close. Many areas on the East coast of the US.
Again your rock , bolt to your hearts content. IF not your rock "ask first" then bolt.
I do hate and have heard people complain about sport climbers bolting trad routes.
Top anchors, I think all should have boltsl; but, often some hiker sees the "defacement of the rock" and cries to their rep.
|
|
|
|
|
steady_climbing
Nov 22, 2006, 7:18 PM
Post #38 of 47
(1684 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 16, 2006
Posts: 152
|
Alexmac, I would love to thank you once again for totally wasting all of our time on this thread. You see, as some members here have realized, a simple answer to a hypothetical question was all thaty was required of you; however, you decided to flex your ethical knowledge and opinions upon all of us. Hmm, maybe it is you that should study english as a second language.. Perhaps you can not deduce the true meaning of my question due to your lack of comprehension in the english language..
Anyway, stay safe, no hard feelings, and study hard.
|
|
|
|
|
alexmac
Nov 22, 2006, 7:21 PM
Post #39 of 47
(1682 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2005
Posts: 550
|
In reply to: Alexmac, I would love to thank you once again for totally wasting all of our time on this thread. You see, as some members here have realized, a simple answer to a hypothetical question was all thaty was required of you; however, you decided to flex your ethical knowledge and opinions upon all of us. Hmm, maybe it is you that should study english as a second language.. Perhaps you can not deduce the true meaning of my question due to your lack of comprehension in the english language.. Anyway, stay safe, no hard feelings, and study hard.
Must be East block , thinking your so correct.
Oh well, enjoy life, I have made my point whether it be merely hypothetical or an urgent matter of bolt or not. Bolting is up to the property owner and or the FA of the route. Having no FA , ask the owner of the property. (government land varies on rules)
Point made, if you fail to understand or agree, its a matter of ethics or lack ..
(This post was edited by alexmac on Nov 22, 2006, 7:22 PM)
|
|
|
|
|
steady_climbing
Nov 22, 2006, 7:27 PM
Post #40 of 47
(1678 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Sep 16, 2006
Posts: 152
|
Well thank you. But, once again if you checked maybe you would see that I originated in NA. Great stereotype for people fropm the "East Block." I am sure your a well rounded individual.. Or maybe your a bigot?
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Nov 22, 2006, 7:28 PM
Post #41 of 47
(1673 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: In reply to: If there was a reasonable walk-off he would use it. If not, he would rappel. If there were available natural features, he would put a sling around the feature and rappel from the sling (possibly using a rappel ring). If there were no such features, he'd have a choice between leaving gear and placing one or two rappel bolts. If the route was multi-pitch, with intermediate bolted hanging belay stations, then he would be more inclined to add rap bolts at the summit, since the intermediate bolted belay stations would be convenient to use as intermediate rappel stations. Jay Ah... an answer that makes sense. Although it does beg the question of when the drill comes out. I guess after having left the gear behind he/she might come back at a later date and bolt the rappel station for future users... right?
Doubtful. You realize that he would have placed any bolts using a hand drill, which he would be carrying with him as a matter of routine, and not a power drill, right?
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
alexmac
Nov 22, 2006, 7:34 PM
Post #42 of 47
(1672 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2005
Posts: 550
|
In reply to: Doubtful. You realize that he would have placed any bolts using a hand drill, which he would be carrying with him as a matter of routine, and not a power drill, right? Jay
A battery powered drill, protective eye wear, depth gauge of some type, a flexible tube (to blow out the dust from the hole) and a wrench.
Myself, I am just the gear mule and belay slave for anyone bolting.
|
|
|
|
|
macblaze
Nov 22, 2006, 7:56 PM
Post #43 of 47
(1659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jun 23, 2005
Posts: 807
|
In reply to: In reply to: Ah... an answer that makes sense. Although it does beg the question of when the drill comes out. I guess after having left the gear behind he/she might come back at a later date and bolt the rappel station for future users... right? Doubtful. You realize that he would have placed any bolts using a hand drill, which he would be carrying with him as a matter of routine, and not a power drill, right? Jay
Uh... sure...I knew that...
So just to make sure I follow (which is all I would ever do on a trad route). Joe Tradguy sees a totally awesome crack, decides he is going to do the FA and makes sure his rack includes a few bolts and a hand drill just in case there are no features.
I actually find this all very fascinating ...and no, I have intention of ever bolting anything anywhere. Are there any books out there on the history/evolution of climbing that cover these sorts of questions. Ethics are all well and grand but they tend to be based on a "purist" sort of equation. It'd be interesting to read about how we've gotten here from there...
Can you tell I'm a sport climber...duh? 
|
|
|
|
|
alexmac
Nov 22, 2006, 8:07 PM
Post #44 of 47
(1658 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2005
Posts: 550
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Ah... an answer that makes sense. Although it does beg the question of when the drill comes out. I guess after having left the gear behind he/she might come back at a later date and bolt the rappel station for future users... right? Doubtful. You realize that he would have placed any bolts using a hand drill, which he would be carrying with him as a matter of routine, and not a power drill, right? Jay Uh... sure...I knew that... So just to make sure I follow (which is all I would ever do on a trad route). Joe Tradguy sees a totally awesome crack, decides he is going to do the FA and makes sure his rack includes a few bolts and a hand drill just in case there are no features. I actually find this all very fascinating ...and no, I have intention of ever bolting anything anywhere. Are there any books out there on the history/evolution of climbing that cover these sorts of questions. Ethics are all well and grand but they tend to be based on a "purist" sort of equation. It'd be interesting to read about how we've gotten here from there... Can you tell I'm a sport climber...duh?
Nothing wrong with being a sport climber
There is an excellent book by John Long and Bob Gaines, where they talk about the history of bolting and how to tell a good bolt from a bad bolt and some of the classic signs there of.
Its called "Climbing Anchoers" 2nd Edition published this year. ISBN-10: 07627023262.
I am not sure a trad climber would bring a drill, then again I have only done routes that have had a FA already. I think a hand or power drill would be an odd item on a rack
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Nov 23, 2006, 2:06 AM
Post #45 of 47
(1628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
In reply to: In reply to: In reply to: Ah... an answer that makes sense. Although it does beg the question of when the drill comes out. I guess after having left the gear behind he/she might come back at a later date and bolt the rappel station for future users... right? Doubtful. You realize that he would have placed any bolts using a hand drill, which he would be carrying with him as a matter of routine, and not a power drill, right? Jay Uh... sure...I knew that... So just to make sure I follow (which is all I would ever do on a trad route). Joe Tradguy sees a totally awesome crack, decides he is going to do the FA and makes sure his rack includes a few bolts and a hand drill just in case there are no features.
The decision to carry the bolt kit is a judgment call. For a 1-pitch crack route, there wouldn't be much need. On the other hand, for a multi-pitch wilderness route, where bolts may be needed to protect (or aid) blank sections, establish a hanging belay, or make the bolt kit would be essential.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
alexmac
Nov 23, 2006, 4:15 AM
Post #47 of 47
(1615 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 23, 2005
Posts: 550
|
In reply to: In reply to: I am not sure a trad climber would bring a drill, then again I have only done routes that have had a FA already. I think a hand or power drill would be an odd item on a rack Gotta love n00b-to-n00b wisdom. Jay
You carry the drill :) I will carry the beer....
|
|
|
|
|
|
