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sportlead
Jan 31, 2007, 5:28 AM
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When I climb on my home woodie and outdoors, more at home, I can feel that my triceps and other muscles are being worked, but when I'm done it doesn't feel like my pecs or my biceps, more my pec.s have been worked much. Is this true or do I just not notice it as much in these muscles
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jonoj
Jan 31, 2007, 6:12 AM
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Climbing doesn't work your pecs....neither your bi-ceps really. Best do complimentary exercises like push-ups or bench-presses for pecs...and arm curls for biceps. It's important to work the muscle groups that climbing doesn't work...just to keep balance in your body and posture.
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jto
Jan 31, 2007, 7:37 AM
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climbing doesnīt work our bis or pecs??? noooo way. if you pull yourself from anywhere to somewhere your biceps are doing work immediately the arm is something else than straight. your pecs are doing a lot of work too in stabilizing movements and are a big worker in compression moves, mantels etc.
usually pecs, tris and frontal shoulders are not the primary muscles worked but I certainly never would state that they arenīt worked at all.
check your posture. if your shoulders hunch forward badly you have in fact too tight PECS and lats. work your lower traps and keep stertching the above tight ones.
by all this Iīm not saying weightlifting for those "secondary" muscles is not good for you. all strength is good  all I wanna say is that itīs more important to keep checking out the posture. it tells you pretty much.
cheers.
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fluxus
Jan 31, 2007, 6:01 PM
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Well whant can we say about this? Its true that the pecs and biceps are used in climbing movements that involve elbow flexion and horizontal adduction of the shoulder respectivly, but I think the degree to which they are used is far less then climbers realize. Its nothing to worry about. The only problem I think climbers suffer from is what has been called "pec Minor" syndrome in which the glenohumeral joint is pulled forward by chronic tightness in the pec minor. This can be helped with regular stretching.
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jh_angel
Jan 31, 2007, 6:12 PM
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jto wrote: check your posture. if your shoulders hunch forward badly you have in fact too tight PECS and lats. work your lower traps and keep stertching the above tight ones.
I use to have hunched shoulders and building my pecs help in correcting it, along with a chiropractor. It's not uncommon for people with week pecs to develop an extended curve, or hunch, in their upper back. I will agree with the stretching though, it always helps.
-Josh
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jto
Jan 31, 2007, 6:41 PM
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the same problem is very usual in other similar sports also like swimming. Iīve had several customers who look in the beginning of the training relationship like the guy in notre dame bell tower and are wondering why they lack strength and are always injured well... I have no idea!!! heheee... usually those bad postures are corrected pretty soon in just few weeks. at the same time usual shoulder problems disappear too.
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chadnsc
Jan 31, 2007, 6:45 PM
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jto wrote: check your posture. if your shoulders hunch forward badly you have in fact too tight PECS and lats. work your lower traps and keep stertching the above tight ones.
You're almost correct. Usually 'climbers hunchback' is caused from either an over development of the pecs, or weak lats. The pecs pull your shoulders forward and the lats pull them back and down. Climbers tend to work the upper back and front deltoid while ignoring the lats. This causes the shoulder blades to tip forward creating the hunchback look.
The moral of the story; balance your workout.
(This post was edited by chadnsc on Jan 31, 2007, 6:46 PM)
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jto
Jan 31, 2007, 6:52 PM
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check where the lats are attached to. they pull shoulders, surprise surprise, forward.
the traps, rhomboids etc pull the shoulder back.
(This post was edited by jto on Feb 1, 2007, 6:24 AM)
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jto
Jan 31, 2007, 7:07 PM
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thanks. at least I have one now hehee. didnīt notice it was so long.
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aerili
Jan 31, 2007, 7:44 PM
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chadnsc wrote: jto wrote: check your posture. if your shoulders hunch forward badly you have in fact too tight PECS and lats. work your lower traps and keep stertching the above tight ones. You're almost correct. Usually 'climbers hunchback' is caused from either an over development of the pecs, or weak lats. The pecs pull your shoulders forward and the lats pull them back and down. Climbers tend to work the upper back and front deltoid while ignoring the lats. This causes the shoulder blades to tip forward creating the hunchback look. The moral of the story; balance your workout.
jto is correct, you are not. This posture is also commonly referred to as "upper crossed syndrome" and is usually the result of tight pecs and weak rhomboids/lower traps.
Also, whoever said lats are usually weak in climbers doesn't understand anatomy. Lats are NOT likely to be weak, nor are biceps, although it is true that most climbing hold positions (esp. in sport) require more use of the brachialis and less of the biceps due to mechanical positioning of the forearm; however, bis are still assisting the movement. Pecs and tris may or may not be weak in a climber...It is my opinion that trad climbers are probably less likely to have weakness in these opposing muscle groups than people who primarily boulder or sport climb due to the requirement for more pushing motions like mantling, chimneying, OW, and gastoning (sp?).
Weakness/tightness of the pec minor could also factor into forward position of the shoulders as someone mentioned, but stretching this muscle is a lot trickier than stretching the pec major and I don't believe a layperson could distinguish between the two.
Lastly, the pec major is a remarkable muscle and despite popular belief, it does not ONLY perform pushing motions. The sternal portion of this muscle assists the lats in extension of the humerus, i.e. pulling down during climbing. This unique phenomenon is due to the many orientations of the muscle fibers on opposite sides of the muscle itself, so in reality the pec major is involved in completely opposing movements of the arm--flexion AND extension. Therefore, you really ARE working part of your pec major during normal climbing movements.
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fluxus
Jan 31, 2007, 9:05 PM
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chadnsc wrote: You're almost correct. Usually 'climbers hunchback' is caused from either an over development of the pecs, or weak lats.
You are going to have a hard time finding anyone who knows what they are talking about who agrees with this statement. Sorry.
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fluxus
Jan 31, 2007, 9:17 PM
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jto wrote: check where the lats are attached to. they pull shoulders, surprise surprise, forward.
Hummm, considering the origin of the Lats and the action of the lats it's not really possible for them to pull the glenohumeral joint or shoulder forward.
The actions of the Lats are:
internal rotation, extension, adduction and horizontal abduction of the glenohumeral joint.
maybe you are talking about internal rotation but thats not really the same as pulling the shoulder forward. am I reading you correctly?
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jto
Jan 31, 2007, 9:24 PM
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Yes, you are correct. I wrote my thoughts down badly. Lats are not pulling the shoulder forward but rotate internally, of course. Easier said in Finnish really
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fluxus
Jan 31, 2007, 9:42 PM
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aerili wrote: Pecs and tris may or may not be weak in a climber...
Elbow extension plays an important role in many climbing moves. On many longer moves the elbow starts in a flexed position and extends as the climber's body moves upward. The triceps are not going to be weak in sport climbers or boulderers. Assuming vertical to overhanging routes, quite the opposite is true.
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adklimber
Jan 31, 2007, 10:32 PM
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fluxus wrote: aerili wrote: Pecs and tris may or may not be weak in a climber... Elbow extension plays an important role in many climbing moves. On many longer moves the elbow starts in a flexed position and extends as the climber's body moves upward. The triceps are not going to be weak in sport climbers or boulderers. Assuming vertical to overhanging routes, quite the opposite is true.
Fluxus, please explain how elbow extension increases tricep strength.
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fluxus
Feb 1, 2007, 12:06 AM
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Because the tricep is a prime mover in elbow extension. I should also add that the tricep extends and adducts the shoulder joint which we do see in climbing fairly often. The is no doubt in my mind as to the importance of elbow extension. Espically in moves of off-set and dynamic balance.
in many moves we see the elbow flexors and extensors working together at different moments to stabalize the elbow.
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jto
Feb 1, 2007, 6:39 AM
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triceps are used in many climbing moves and myself using them a lot in wide lock-offs. meaning wide moves where you move laterally and vertically the same time and the elbow is not locked fully bent but in an angle or even straight further away from my body.
just one example of one top climber here: he climbs 5.14a and benched a huge 145 lbs  in november so obviously pec strength isnīt the primary thing to achieve to be a good climber.
anyway the guy trains a lot bouldering too during the winter and has always been pretty bad in compression moves and similar. so I planned some weight training for him and now among other things he benches 4x185 lbs and says heīs definitively more solid in compressions and feels he can stabilize some moves much better than before. and he didnīt gain excess weight at all.
one arm pullups, benches, leg lifts etc are not specific climbing moves but it certainly helps to get stronger muscles so you can try to move those abilities to your climbing. moving is a neural thing so all you have to do is make those stronger muscles learn how to move in climbing way.
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ninja_climber
Feb 1, 2007, 9:26 AM
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Pecs and biceps work the most on overhangs and roofs.
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aerili
Feb 1, 2007, 7:09 PM
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fluxus wrote: Because the tricep is a prime mover in elbow extension. I should also add that the tricep extends and adducts the shoulder joint which we do see in climbing fairly often. The is no doubt in my mind as to the importance of elbow extension. Espically in moves of off-set and dynamic balance. in many moves we see the elbow flexors and extensors working together at different moments to stabalize the elbow.
It is an assistor only in extending and adducting the shoulder, not a prime mover. And it depends on the position of the shoulder, i.e. it has to be externally rotated for this to occur (although this is not uncommon in climbing, esp. in lock-off position).
Of course it works to some degree to assist stabilizing elbow and shoulder as well, but I do have to say my personal experience with climbing has had the effect of adding much more strength and definition in my biceps, brachialis, and brachioradialis than in my tris. I do mainly trad climbing now (more options for pushing), but I do use pushing movements at every opportunity in every discipline of climbing--since I'm female and not a meathead utilizing the "pull up" climbing technique. 
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