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kevinheiss
Feb 20, 2007, 2:43 PM
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What would be the best cam to use for
Granite
sandstone
limestone
Thanks
Kevin
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summerprophet
Feb 20, 2007, 3:07 PM
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Depends on the individual placement, not on the overall rock type.
I suppose Metolius Fat Cams would have the most contact area, regardless of the rock type, but it is rare that you see them in use outside of sandstone areas.
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grampacharlie
Feb 20, 2007, 5:51 PM
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My $.02 is that BD cams are the best thing you can use for any kind of rock, especially sandstone. I've noticed metolius, when placed in cracks that are too small, or if the cam has walked, that the tips of the cam lobes can rotate around past the center stem of the cam and come into contact with the rock on the opposing side of the crack that the main part of the lobe is on. This makes it virtually impossible to remove, in that a single lobe is cammed into both sides of the crack.
It's a little hard to explain without a visual, but this doesn't happen with BD cams because you cannot get the tips of the cam lobes past the center stem of the cam.
I've seen long routes at red rocks with as many as 5 different cams lodged in cracks for good, and most of them were metolius.
I'm not saying it isn't possible to loose a BD cam in a placement that was too tight, or that the cam walked into, but it's not as common in my experience.
If you're asking aout really soft rock though, I use hexes and tricams for that stuff.
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kane_schutzman
Feb 20, 2007, 5:54 PM
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Now a fat Camalot may be kinda cool,
but of course it would be heavy as hell.
(This post was edited by kane_schutzman on Feb 20, 2007, 6:05 PM)
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petsfed
Feb 20, 2007, 6:38 PM
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grampacharlie wrote: It's a little hard to explain without a visual, but this doesn't happen with BD cams because you cannot get the tips of the cam lobes past the center stem of the cam.
What? I'll bet you own a lot of Camalots, but you can't seriously claim you've never pulled the trigger down all the way just to see what it looks like? If a cam had stops such that the tips of the lobes never crossed the center line, its range would be microscopic.
/has overcammed and fixed a camalot, felt pretty stupid,still hasn't retrieved it
(This post was edited by petsfed on Feb 20, 2007, 6:38 PM)
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kricir
Feb 20, 2007, 7:57 PM
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In reply to: Post: grampacharlie wrote:It's a little hard to explain without a visual, but this doesn't happen with BD cams because you cannot get the tips of the cam lobes past the center stem of the cam. What? I'll bet you own a lot of Camalots, but you can't seriously claim you've never pulled the trigger down all the way just to see what it looks like? If a cam had stops such that the tips of the lobes never crossed the center line, its range would be microscopic.
I think this is what grandpacharlie is talking about.
This is impossible for a BD camalot
Imagine a cam in this position stuck in a crack. This is not something you want to fall on, and it is quite difficult to get out. This happened to me once at the worst time possible, after a sketchy runout off route on an alpine route. The bigger metolius cams are more prone to this than the small ones, and the smaller BD’s don’t have that much more expansion than the small metolius, so I use the TCU sized metolius cams, and BD’s for .75 and up.
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grampacharlie
Feb 20, 2007, 8:13 PM
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You're right about the center cable, the ends of the lobes do not come past the outermost edge of the opposing lobe when fully retracted, as they do on other cams. This is due to the double axle design that also mad these cams one of the first to be able to be placed passively.
Please pardon my early morning slip up. I'm not very articulate before the coffee has kicked in.
The point is the same though: BD cams are not impossible to lose in overcammed placements, but are less likely to do so than others.
On a side note, (and this is not meant as an attack on petsfed, just a personal observation) I have noticed that there is a trend to point out that a person is wrong, but not to continue on to correct the statement. I appreciate that my mistake was pointed out, but I feel that it would have been more productive to correct the missing info rather than to just say 'you're wrong.'
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stymingersfink
Feb 20, 2007, 11:38 PM
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devils_advocate wrote: grampacharlie wrote: I have noticed that there is a trend to point out that a person is wrong, but not to continue on to correct the statement. I appreciate that my mistake was pointed out, but I feel that it would have been more productive to correct the missing info rather than to just say 'you're wrong.' I completely disagree, that is incorrect.  
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punk_rocker333
Feb 21, 2007, 12:10 AM
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I've had the exact same problem with a few of my metolius cams, usually in flairing cracks. I was messing around with one this weekend at the crux of a route and it got stuck like that in a flair. I eventually got it out and plugged in something else quickly. This definitley is a problem I've faced before.
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petsfed
Feb 21, 2007, 12:15 AM
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grampacharlie wrote: On a side note, (and this is not meant as an attack on petsfed, just a personal observation) I have noticed that there is a trend to point out that a person is wrong, but not to continue on to correct the statement. I appreciate that my mistake was pointed out, but I feel that it would have been more productive to correct the missing info rather than to just say 'you're wrong.'
This is true. When everything worth saying has been said though, it leaves me with little recourse.
The original question asked what would be best in those situations, and I have to retort, what quality sandstone and limestone are we talking about?
Bullet hard on both accounts? Whatever cam you like placing will do just fine.
Softer on either account? I'd go for something with wider lobes, like the Fat Cams (or even regular metolius cams, since the lobes are so wide). Its an awkward place to be though, since cams might track out, whereas passive gear needs constrictions that might bust out.
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tradrenn
Feb 21, 2007, 12:29 AM
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A one stem one is best. ( BD, Aliens )
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shorty
Feb 21, 2007, 12:37 AM
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kevinheiss wrote: What would be the best cam to use for Granite sandstone limestone
I believe that personal understanding of how to judge the proper location to place a cam (how solid is the rock, what are the expected angles of forces, what is the expected force/the length of potential fall, is the proper length of sling being used) and how to place a cam (matching cam size to crack size, maximizing cam surface contact to rock, aligning cam to expected force angles) mean more than cam brands.
You can spend a bazillion dollars on the best cams in the world, but if they're poorly placed in crappy rock, you might as well be free soloing. By the way, I try to avoid poor rock like the plague -- highly fractured kitty-litter granite, sugary sandstone, and hollow limestone are not my friends.
IMO, buy the cams with features you like and at the prices you can afford (as long as the cams are from reputable manufacturers) and learn how to properly place the cams.
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raymondjeffrey
Feb 21, 2007, 1:01 AM
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Granite: Tech Friends and BD
Sandstone: Metolius FOR SURE then Friends and BD also Aliens for the horizontals
Limestone: Bolts and more bolts
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kevinheiss
Feb 21, 2007, 1:22 AM
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stymingersfink
Feb 21, 2007, 1:55 AM
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shorty wrote: kevinheiss wrote: IMO, buy the cams with features you like and at the prices you can afford. No... buy the cams you like, damn the price (if you can find them on sale so much the better, but not a good reason NOT to buy what you like). You'll be stuck climbing on them for quite a while, and when you average the price of gear over ten years of climbing there's only cheap and cheaper.
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vinnie
Feb 21, 2007, 2:14 AM
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Instead of asking type of rock you're climbing on maybe you should be asking what type of climbing you're doing. When I'm in Zion (sandstone) or Yosemite (granite) I often prefer tcus and aliens in the smaller sizes becasue they fit better in pin scars and shallow flaring placements. On the other hand when I'm at Indian Creek climbing splitter sandstone cracks or wider cracks on any type of rock I often prefer Friends or Camalots (Friends more so at the creek). With four cam lobes both brands have a greater surface area than tcus. I like Friends better for the Creek because they have a better overlap between sizes. Although I've never used them I'm sure the metolius fat cams would be great at the creek. Look at what other climbers at your local crags are climbing on, climb using your friends' gear, and in the end buy what works best for you. I second stymingersfink's post on buying what you like and not necessarily what's cheapest. When I first started buying my rack I bought cams that were cheap. After I realized how much I didn't like those cams I bought new ones and ended up spending more money in the end. I guess the positive side is that I don't have to borrow gear to climb at the Creek. Hope that helps answer your question.
Vinnie
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granite_grrl
Feb 21, 2007, 1:36 PM
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Too many opinions here. Are you looking to get a set of cams for every different place you climb at? Unless you have the cash for several sets of cams start with what you like (metolious, BD, aliens, DMM, Friends.....everyone has their favorite, you'll never get agrement).
I'm sure fat cams are great in super soft sand stone, but I have one and I hate it for the places I've climbed at (not soft sandstone). A lot of flaring cracks? Maybe grab some offset cams too. Small cracks? Get nothing but micros, or maybe even ball nuts.
Remember, opionions are like assholes.....
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angry
Feb 24, 2007, 12:31 AM
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I am not concerned about the rock type but am about the crack type.
Smooth and parallel = Camalot
Nubbly and wierd, sometimes flared = Friends and Aliens.
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? 
