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granite_grrl
Apr 11, 2007, 5:16 PM
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I have been having some problems getting back into things after my accident. Now I don't want to blame him, but I have been having problems with my husband and the way that he's been pushing me. I think that he's trying to be helpful, but usually I feel that there's too much pressure on me and I don't know if I can perform to his expectations.
Last weekend I went down to the RRG with a couple of friends. No expectation, I did not have to lead, nor lead belay. I was just going to take photos and do some top roping. I felt relaxed and comfortable enough that I took the step to take some larger TR falls, and then did my first lead since my accident (very easy climb, bolted, but still a lead and a huge step for me).
So the question: how do other women like to be pushed? If I get the typical male pushing (you're backing down from that climb?! Don't be a pussy!) then I just dig my heels in and go to the opposite extreme. I won't try anything. But if I'm comfortable and relaxed I will push myself into doing things that scare me but I want to get back to doing. I think that part of it is the fear of dissapointing someone, easier to say flat out that you're not doing it than the try and to flake out. Part of it is also that I'm afraid that if I agree to start creaping forward then they'll start to expect me to fly forward at their pace, and they will push me further into things I'm not ready for.
I have found more men push this way than women, more women try to make things comfortable. I'm just curious who other women act/react to this subject.
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marinaaxid25
Apr 11, 2007, 5:29 PM
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I don't mind being pushed to go further. In fact, I love it. It's the only way for me to get better. I excelled in other sports such as tennis and horseback riding, so I'm used to being up against a lot of competition.
Encouragement can be in the form of many things. However, if a person---man or woman---says "what's wrong with you? why aren't you reaching to the top?" I view that as negative reinforcement.
So for me, it all boils down to the kind of language the othe person uses.
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carabiner96
Apr 11, 2007, 5:31 PM
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It depends on who's doing the pushing. Most of the time i get really frustrated and want to give up just so they shut up.
BUT, I myself am a pusher. I get into tiffs with my BF and get frustrated when I can tell he's not trying hard enough, he's moving too slow, he's giving up...
Some pushing is good, but too much just sucks for all involved.
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erisspirit
Apr 11, 2007, 5:36 PM
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I can get really stubborn really quick when I am feeling pushed. I do the same thing when people take that approach of "what your backing down!?!" I tend to be more responsive of things like " ok so next time your up there try this __insert some good advice___ ". I think mostly when I back down from a climb I can't have people questioning that... I'm still working on my lead head, and if its not there I really struggle, and the climb i did last time might just not be in the cards for this time.
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granite_grrl
Apr 11, 2007, 5:42 PM
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I think that I'm more sensitive to being pushed than I used to be because I don't have any idea what I'm able to do anymore. I've only been back to climbing for less than 3 months!
I see the distinction between positive pushing and negative pushing. Sayign things like "comeon, you're strong, try to push through!" is much different than "suck it up princess, don't be a pansy!".
I can be a competative person, but I find that its normally a negative reaction for me. I shouldn't be climbing because I want to be better than someone else. If I let myself get too competative then I'm really hard on myself when I "loose", and that's not doing anyone any good!
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carabiner96
Apr 11, 2007, 5:46 PM
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between the two, i think i'd personally rather someone tell me to suck it up than be all summer camp counselor "it's ok, just try your hardest! You can succedd in your heart!"
Bleh.
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marinaaxid25
Apr 11, 2007, 5:58 PM
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...I also take into account on WHO is saying the encouragement.
If it's someone I don't know very well, I'm more cautious. But if it's a friend, then I feed off of what they're saying. I know, it sounds strange.
btw, getting all "camp counselor" wasn't the attitude I was describing. There were NO apologies of what was said during my years of tennis. If you couldn't make it, best thing for you to do is walk off the court and not come back. I myself hate whiners.
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caughtinside
Apr 11, 2007, 6:09 PM
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you know, i saw something like that last weekend.
Our man Bob was on top of a ledge, bringing up his second, a woman. The two didnt' know each other all that well, but both were good climbers.
Now, bob was shirtless. All of a sudden, the clouds rolled in, the wind picked up, and bob was freezing. He yelled down for the second to climb faster, he was cold! The second shrieked back up "Now that you said that I'm just going to climb slower!!"
bob begged and pleaded, to no avail. Eventually they got down, bob was blue, and pissed. the woman was pissed. And I have to say, I'd take bob's side in such a sitch.
Now clearly, that's different from your situation. But I have seen the 'dig in the heels and refuse' response from women quite often. AND IT IS EXTREMELY FRUSTERATING.
it's one thing to say you're trying, or your not feeling it, or whatever. But to actually say 'no, because you just said what you did, I am going to do the opposite' is completely maddening. It is just so passive aggressive its ridiculous.
Just say what you're feeling. If you're scared, tired, frusterated, just say so. tell your partner what you need, and what you don't need.
Also, I have noticed that in situations where you literally have to yell at each other to be heard because of wind/outcrops, sometimes this can me misinterpreted...
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macherry
Apr 11, 2007, 6:22 PM
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depends. My regular partner was great at encouraging me to step up to the plate. he was a good judge at what was within my leading limits, how i could push myself, and he also knew when to step back. Too bad work committments and his trips to south america have cut into our cilmbing time together.
Contrary to that i have a friend i've only climbed with a couple of times and he can be an ass, handing me the rope and telling me i had to lead and that i'm not really climbing if i don't lead. Screw that. it will be interesting to see how his new to climbing girlfriend will react to his bs.
the hubby is a good climbing partner because we climb at the same level and we keep it pretty easy going. Once it stops being fun, it's time to walk away.
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kimmyt
Apr 11, 2007, 7:01 PM
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Situation 1) I'm thinking of doing something, thinking I can do it, but also afraid I can't. Partner pushes me to do it. I'm happy they have made me go outside of my comfort zone and that I have done it.
Situation 2) I'm being pushed to do something I seriously don't want to do, don't really think I can do, and am scared that I will be pushed into doing it when I'm not ready. I did in my heels and turn stubborn.
The problem is that sometimes I think I'm in situation number 2, when really I'm in situation number 1.
sigh
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climbingbetty22
Apr 11, 2007, 7:13 PM
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I can empathize. I don't deal with feel pushed and if there is one sure way to get me to do the opposite of what you really want its too push me if I'm already feeling uncomfortable.
I like a challenge, but I have to decide on the terms of the that challenge, I don't like having it decided for me.
Jason is great partner in that he knows my limits, knows realistically what I can and can't do and he knows what its all about- fun. His philosophy is that if it ain't fun, why do it?
Having had climbing partners in the past who weren't quite as relaxed had left me with a compulsion to keep climbing when I didn't want to or to attempt things I didn't feel quite comfortable with for fear of disappointing or angering them.
Sometimes, with Jason we are three pitches into the day and I'm worked already. I know he still has another 5-6 pitches in him and I feel badly that I don't have anything left. And he always seems to know when this happens and he always tells me, "we're done whenever you're done, its OK." And it really is. He never gives me grief for tapping out early. ANd when I talk about how scread I get on lead and how much that hinders my leading, he reassures me that on shear ability alone he knows I can led harder then I currently do and that I'll get there eventually.
Now, I realize at this point I don't seem to have been much help, but I will say that despite the sounds of it, its not always perfect. And there have been times when I have felt pushed and he's felt frustrated because it seems that all I'm doing is making excuses for why I can't do something instead of at least trying.
I think that's how men tend to be....at least try and find out your limits. I remember playing softball as a girl. Man I suckes. I hatedd batting because if I didn't get walked, I struck out and after so many times of that it got to be embarassing so I would just stand there and try to get the walk. My dad use to always push me to at least try "go down swingin'" he said.
Perhaps you just need to have an honest, open talk with your hubby about what's going on. Explain how you feel, how certain actions of his make you feel. Make sure you tell him too want you want and especially, what you want from him. More then likely he wants to support you and he probably thinks he is, not realizes that the words/behaviors that support him are not as helpful for you. But you have to talk to him and explain it all first. If you don't tell him how you're feeling he can be expected to know or assume and definitely not to make any correct assumptions.
Good luck!!! Tings are going to get better!!
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temperedinsanity
Apr 11, 2007, 7:29 PM
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I think sometimes it's all in the phrasing.
I too am someone who has that tendency to go to the opposite extreme when i'm being pushed. And i used to work for the military and that is just chock full of men telling you to suck it up and telling you what to do and bullying you into doing stuff. I HATED that and all it made me want to do was give up and give them the finger.
That being said...i do sometimes need to be pushed or i fall into old habits and routines and don't go any farther. What seems to work best for me is for the person pushing to ask questions. Stuff like..."think you can make it to that next level?" or "Can you do one more?" That seems to be just enough to get me thinking about it. I personally hate saying "no i can't do that" so just posing the question a lot of the time will be enough to get me to push myself. But there's also no shame in backing down at that point...if you want to play it safe. There's no disappointing the "pusher" because they just asked a question and you answered it. They aren't holding your hand and giving you a pep talk. Just making you think about what it is you think you can do and what you're ready for. if you're like me and it's sort of natural for you to want to do more...then it should help.
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lmcwil
Apr 11, 2007, 7:42 PM
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kimmyt wrote: Situation 1) I'm thinking of doing something, thinking I can do it, but also afraid I can't. Partner pushes me to do it. I'm happy they have made me go outside of my comfort zone and that I have done it. Situation 2) I'm being pushed to do something I seriously don't want to do, don't really think I can do, and am scared that I will be pushed into doing it when I'm not ready. I did in my heels and turn stubborn. The problem is that sometimes I think I'm in situation number 2, when really I'm in situation number 1. sigh
I totally agree with this post. My usual climbing partner used to push me like crazy and sometimes it ended up really pissing me off, but the fact is he did get me to do a lot of things I didn't think I could do. But then again, most of the biggest break-throughs I've had were when I pushed myself.
Now I have a "climbing student" who I'm taking out to the crags, and I think some days I push her quite hard. I do it because I know she will never make progress unless she really tries.
The key is for the "pusher' to be aware of the other person's feelings. Like, with my student, I regularly ask her "was I pushing you too hard? how do you feel about what you did today?" so that way i can stay in-tune w/ her feelings.
I've noticed a few times when my normal partner has been pushing me, yet backed off before he really pissed me off. For instance, there are some climbs that as of yet, I refuse to lead because I think they are too run-out. I know I can handle the climbing, but I haven't got over the run-out yet. I think he senses at times that I'm definitely not going to do whatever he wants, and then he backs off.
Unfortunately, being in touch with other people's feelings isn't something that all men are known for. So, if your guy partner is pushing you too hard, let him know, and explain your reasons why. Maybe tell him "I'm not going to lead X today because of these reasons: <list>. However, I believe I will be ready to lead it when: <something happens>." In my experience, despite their frequent illogical behavior, most men tend to respond pretty well to logic.
just my $.02
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erisspirit
Apr 11, 2007, 9:05 PM
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the way pushing is done is definitely important... I took a big lead fall a ways back. Now I came out of it fine, no major injuries, except my confidence on lead was shot. I went out with a friend to climb, and we did a few multi pitches. at the top after 4 10b's and a 10c, we got to a 5.8 pitch and he said "ok you're leading"
me> "uhh no i don't think I can"
him>" phhhhh you just cleanly top roped way harder"
me> "uhhhh still no, im not feeling it"
him>" to bad I'm exhausted, I led everything else"
I spent a panicked first half being awkward and flew up the second half. I was so glad he made me lead it. It was OBVIOUSLY something I could do and he knew that after seeing my performance all day.
I think the "suck it up" bugs me when I really am at my strength and wits end, but when its something blatantly in my skill level, and im just giving up, then thats when its really helpful...
I guess its a matter of there are times to push and times to back off a bit
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marinaaxid25
Apr 11, 2007, 11:51 PM
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"...All of a sudden, the clouds rolled in, the wind picked up, and bob was freezing. He yelled down for the second to climb faster, he was cold! The second shrieked back up "Now that you said that I'm just going to climb slower!!"
Well that's just cruel. I know better than to manipulate a situaion simply because I'm annoyed.
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happiegrrrl
Apr 12, 2007, 2:00 AM
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I admit I've not read all the resposnes yet....but my time is tight, and this is a topic that really interests me - so I want IN! hahaha
FIRST - CONGRATULATIONS ON YOUR LEAD!!!
There are ways to encourage people that work better than others. Personally, I DETEST beta. EVEN when I seem to be missing the obvious. I would rather have to downclimb, lower off, or escape via an eaiser route and to keep the climb between me and the rock; the relationship I prefer. I have a long list of climbs that have bested me, and that's as it should be. I don't consider it a clean ascent if someone supplied beta. Beta is....like hand jammies. Or something.
Even WORSE is beta before you have even had time to look at the upcoming sequence. They should seel, in gear shops, a big, fat CORK, to stick in the mouths of people who spew like that. I don't know what you'd call it; maybe Beta Buddy....
My regular partners know I don't want beta. But sometimes people slip. Gnerally, I can do the "plug your ears and go 'lalala - I can't hear you" thing by exclaiming "NO BETA!" as thet begin to talk. Because usually they don't start with the meat. It usually starts out "Ya knooooowwwww.....ya cou--" By that time, they've been silenced. If not - hit them with the death ray stare.
"Encouragement" that is demeaning is probably worse, but easier for me to deal with with one well-timed, drawn out "STFU!!!!" And an icy glare, if I want to accessorize.
I climbed with a guy for a while who did both of the above - from the moment I roped up. I will NEVER allow someone to treat me that way again.
That said - there ARE people who have encouraged me in ways that I have found helpful. "Stick with it." "Keep breathing"(as opposed to "remember to breathe" which assumes you aren't. The difference is subtle, but significant.). "There you go" as I am moving through the sequence I hesitated over. "Good work!" when I succeeded on a difficult seequence. But when I am "in it," what I want - is to know my belayer is with me and nothing more. In fact "I'm with you"and the belay technique to back that up, of course) is quite reassuring.
Those sorts of things help me. Those sorts of things free up my energy so I can pull it. Those sorts of things empower me and make me FEEL my ability.
It is ME who pushes. Nobody ELSE can make those moves for me. Maybe it is because I have PTSD but when someone pushes me with negative words, or tries to push beta on me, it triggers stuff. It does something to my sense of self, and I feel as if they are trying to "control" me.
That's not the right word, but I know that the thing that bugged me the most about this person I mentioned above was that I had to fight a feeling that they were taking credit for my accomplishments.
And it doesn't matter if they are, or are not, attempting to dominate, or take credit for "the climber girl they created" - that is what it feels like TO ME. It's got nothing to do with them, you see.....
That MIGHT be at the heart of the issue for some other people; I don't know. I'd be interested to hear if it rings familiar in any way to some others who have said they don't like being pushed....
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rrrADAM
Apr 12, 2007, 2:01 AM
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Guys and girls are very different, and generally speaking:
If a guy isn't doing something, he doesn't feel very good about himself.
If a girl doesn't feel very good about herself, she doesn't want to do anything.
Most guys and gals don't realize this, thus they do what 'they would do', and try to get others to do the same... Which can lead to problems.
In most healthy relationships, whether aware of doing it or not...
Guys say what they think and want, care how their partner's feel about it, and ask what they can do to help them fell better.
Girls say what they feel and what they don't want, and ask what their partner's what they think about it.
Its how, despite our differences, we can compliment each other... Instead of compete. 
Also... We're pretty stupid when it comes to reading your major hints, so the subtle ones are generally beyond our ability to even remotely detect. However, we listen well, so tell us, directly, as if you water it all down with wishy-washy crap, we'll get it wrong.
Its the same reason why we tell you bluntly and directly things that often get you all pissed off, instead of beat around the bush for hours with subtle wishy-washy hints... Remember, we're stupid.
(This post was edited by rrradam on Apr 12, 2007, 2:12 AM)
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robdotcalm
Apr 12, 2007, 3:48 AM
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Caught inside wrote:
«Now, bob was shirtless. All of a sudden, the clouds rolled in, the wind picked up, and bob was freezing. He yelled down for the second to climb faster, he was cold! The second shrieked back up "Now that you said that I'm just going to climb slower!!"»
The moral of this story is don’t climb with someone who is shirtless. Amusing but serious. Bob’s lack of attire indicates a complete disregard of the possibilities of the weather changing thus endangering not only himself but his partner. He should stick to gym climbing.
Cheers,
Rob.calm
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caughtinside
Apr 12, 2007, 3:59 AM
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robdotcalm wrote: Caught inside wrote: «Now, bob was shirtless. All of a sudden, the clouds rolled in, the wind picked up, and bob was freezing. He yelled down for the second to climb faster, he was cold! The second shrieked back up "Now that you said that I'm just going to climb slower!!"» The moral of this story is don’t climb with someone who is shirtless. Amusing but serious. Bob’s lack of attire indicates a complete disregard of the possibilities of the weather changing thus endangering not only himself but his partner. He should stick to gym climbing. Cheers, Rob.calm
sorry mr dot calm!
you post a lot of quality info here, but I don't see the problem in doing a single pitch climb shirtless, to stay cool.
After the incident (at the cookie cliff) our man bob proceeded to float an .11c and and .11d crack.
I'd climb with that dude any day.
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climbingbetty22
Apr 12, 2007, 1:30 PM
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rrradam wrote: Guys and girls are very different, and generally speaking: If a guy isn't doing something, he doesn't feel very good about himself. If a girl doesn't feel very good about herself, she doesn't want to do anything. Most guys and gals don't realize this, thus they do what 'they would do', and try to get others to do the same... Which can lead to problems. In most healthy relationships, whether aware of doing it or not... Guys say what they think and want, care how their partner's feel about it, and ask what they can do to help them fell better. Girls say what they feel and what they don't want, and ask what their partner's what they think about it. Its how, despite our differences, we can compliment each other... Instead of compete. Also... We're pretty stupid when it comes to reading your major hints, so the subtle ones are generally beyond our ability to even remotely detect. However, we listen well, so tell us, directly, as if you water it all down with wishy-washy crap, we'll get it wrong. Its the same reason why we tell you bluntly and directly things that often get you all pissed off, instead of beat around the bush for hours with subtle wishy-washy hints... Remember, we're stupid.
Wow, what an insightful post.
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clee03m
Apr 12, 2007, 1:44 PM
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I don't mind, "I got you!" during a hard move, "You got it!" as I am pulling a hard move, and "Are you sure?" as I ask to be lowered. Anything more, and I don't like it.
My husband saying, "Well, I'm not leading it" (because he can't) sometimes inspires me to push harder.
SO or not, I really don't like pushy belayers.
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acacongua
Apr 12, 2007, 5:40 PM
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I like being encouraged, but not pushed.
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lena_chita
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Apr 12, 2007, 7:33 PM
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kimmyt wrote: Situation 1) I'm thinking of doing something, thinking I can do it, but also afraid I can't. Partner pushes me to do it. I'm happy they have made me go outside of my comfort zone and that I have done it. Situation 2) I'm being pushed to do something I seriously don't want to do, don't really think I can do, and am scared that I will be pushed into doing it when I'm not ready. I did in my heels and turn stubborn. The problem is that sometimes I think I'm in situation number 2, when really I'm in situation number 1. sigh
Well put!
In climbing scenario #1 is the norm for me. I usually push myself, so when I say that i don't want to do something (usually after giving it at least a few tries), my partners usually respect that and don't try to push me.
But I have gone with number 2 response in some real-life scenarios not related to climbing. There is definitely a point where you want to shove back when someone is pushing you too hard.
I thing someone who hasn't been seriously injured may not appreciate all the mental things that go with the recovery process. And your injury was xertainly more serious than anything most people have come across...
The few rare occasiuons when I backed away from doing something were all related to the kind of move&fall that got me my spinal injury. It may not be even the same type of move at all, but there is something about the situation, usually bouldering, that just brings a flash-back, and all of a sudden my heart is racing, my palms are sweating, I'm over-gripping like mad and all I can think of is jumping down while I can still control my landing. In that case it doesn't matter that i have a trusted spotter who is saying:"Oh, come-on, I have you, just go for it. Don't give up, go for it" -- Nope, shut up, stop yelling at me, I know what I want to do and I'm doing it!
But on the other hand, this sort of thing is so much more rare for me now than it was 6 months ago... It hardly ever happens now.
What I'm trying to say in my long-winded way, you need to communicate this to your husband. If he obviously means well, and is trying to help you by pushing, there is no point getting mad, but he needs to understand where your current comfort level is.
You will get back into it. You have lead a route this weekend, even though you weren't planning on doing it. I am sure there will be more things like that in the future. I bet you will come back a few weeks/months form now and say: I really wasn't planning on getting on anything above 5.whatever but I got on 5.whateverPLUS, and it actually felt GOOD. I felt strong and I finished it.
If there is anything you think WOULD be helpful, tell your husband that. Maybe you wnat him to just refrain from any advice-- O.K., he needs to know that. Or maybe you need to agree on some signal/phrase that lets him know :"O.K., you are going too far, I'm being serious now when I say that I won't do it. I am not bantering, or joking or asking for more encouragement when I say that I want to come down. I have gone as far as I am comfortable and it is time for you to stop pushing".-- so when you and hubby are in a group and other people pick up on the pushing thing and get you even more uncomfortable and you don't wnat to throw a tantrum or anything, but you are just done-- HE would know it.
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tavs
Apr 16, 2007, 4:51 PM
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My guy will push me to try things he knows I can do--if I'm having a lazy or unmotivated day, or just being reluctant, he'll push me to sack up and lead.....And much more often than not, he was right and I end up being VERY glad I got on the route. So I've come to appreciate this kind of pushing for what it is--him telling me, "hey, I know you can do this, and you should know you can do this too."
That kind of pushing is more than ok for me, and even though sometimes my initial reaction is to dig in my heels and refuse, I've also learned that I think he's often a better judge of my abilities than I am (more objective, perhaps?) so I take his pushing as a boost to my confidence in myself. But a big thing is that I've never felt pushed to completely succeed, so I don't have the reluctance of "what if I try and can't do it? won't he be disappointed?" (though of course I may be disappointed in myself). His pushing is always about me TRYING something I may be reluctant to do, not about me finishing it--so if, in the end, I'm not comfortable/strong/focused enough to complete the route, that's ok. I think this is key to why I accept his pushing.
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climberterp
Apr 16, 2007, 6:36 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: So the question: how do other women like to be pushed? If I get the typical male pushing (you're backing down from that climb?! Don't be a pussy!) then I just dig my heels in and go to the opposite extreme. I won't try anything. But if I'm comfortable and relaxed I will push myself into doing things that scare me but I want to get back to doing. I think that part of it is the fear of dissapointing someone, easier to say flat out that you're not doing it than the try and to flake out. Part of it is also that I'm afraid that if I agree to start creaping forward then they'll start to expect me to fly forward at their pace, and they will push me further into things I'm not ready for.
Tell him exactly what you said here. Be honest and direct about what you need and what works for you. Guys need specifics...like another poster said, they don't necessarily pick up on the subtle comments or cues that women tend to use. Talk about your fear of disappointing him or being pushed too quickly. Identify for yourself the kinds of statements that could trigger you to feel that way, then tell him what kinds of statements will be helpful (give specific examples).
I've found it very helpful to get encouragement/pushing through positive language: 'keep breathing' instead of 'don't hold your breath'; 'look around, you can find your sequence' instead of 'don't get tunnel vision' or giving specific beta. I reeeeallly hate getting unsolicited beta, it's a big pet peeve of mine. I prefer to figure stuff out for myself, and most of my partners know this (some I told more politely than others....still gotta work on that :).
And big congrats to you for getting back out there on the lead!! Amazingly impressive after all you've been through.
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