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carabiner96
May 28, 2007, 11:37 PM
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basilisk wrote: flamer wrote: I'll bet you guys got to do a whole bunch of snow slogs this winter huh? Probably Have "epics" all the time just so you can "cuddle" to keep warm. i changed my mind. i like you. you can join our cuddlefest, but only if i get to give you a noogie 
YAY! A threesome!!!
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flamer
May 28, 2007, 11:39 PM
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carabiner96 wrote: basilisk wrote: flamer wrote: I'll bet you guys got to do a whole bunch of snow slogs this winter huh? Probably Have "epics" all the time just so you can "cuddle" to keep warm. i changed my mind. i like you. you can join our cuddlefest, but only if i get to give you a noogie Ok, but I call the middle! You sexy bastards! josh YAY! A threesome!!! |
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healyje
May 30, 2007, 12:51 AM
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tigerlilly wrote: I would also be interested in the explanation of why a daisy chain is preferable to a Metolius PAS as a personal anchor. Lots of climbers I know use the PAS, self included. Kathy
Josh (Flamer) was obliquely relaying that a reputable source he knows did some destructive drop testing on a bunch of things including daisies and the Metolius PAS. As a result of these tests he is advising folks to use regular nylon daisies instead of the PAS.
Josh, the problem with these tests isn't the results, but to some extent with both the tests and the interpretation of the what the results mean.
First, and as you note, taking a dynamic fall on either a daisy or a PAS is a misuse of either - neither were ever designed to hold falls. As to your statement that people do sometimes make that mistake - true enough, it does sometimes happen - but, significant daisy falls (from above the point of attachement) basically only ever happens when aiding, and again, improperly. Daisies are designed for aid; the PAS was never designed for nor recommended for use as a 'daisy' when aiding.
Second, daisy chain pockets can and do blow around 300lbs and, in a bad fall you will ultimately either blow out a chain pocket or come to the end of the daisy - either way you will hopefully be brought (broke) up short by the end loops. A PAS loop is made up of the same sling material and manner as a 22kn sling is, but due to the webbing on webbing connections inherent in the design they will fail somewhere around 18kn. A daisy tested just with endloops will likely test out a bit above that. The point, however, is that your body wouldn't survive either intact - you'd be busted up in a grand way regardless way before either of those loads.
Third, the P.A.S. stands for 'Personal Anchor System' - not as a daisy. If you arrive at a belay and clip a solid anchor with a PAS and then fell off the stance to the end of the PAS you can still hurt yourself badly depending on how much PAS is out - but the odds of a slip from a belay on to the anchor via a PAS generating anywhere near the types of forces/loads I've just mentioned above are infintessimal to none.
So in general, "misuse" is the operative word here for any failure of a daisy or a PAS and in this whole discussion. The difference is you possibly could, by a fluke or miscue, fall on a daisy from above the attachment point while aiding - that should never happen with a PAS. Used as intended, as a Personal Anchor System and where you are never above your anchor, you are not going to generate forces that would break one. Josh, the results you have implied are correct, your takeaway message is not, however. It's apples and oranges to an extent and the comparison of the failures is only valid for misuses of either, and an extreme misuse in the case of the PAS. As a daisy the PAS is an serious error in judgment; as an anchoring system the PAS is superior in everyway to a daisy.
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carabiner96
May 30, 2007, 12:56 AM
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healyje wrote: tigerlilly wrote: I would also be interested in the explanation of why a daisy chain is preferable to a Metolius PAS as a personal anchor. Lots of climbers I know use the PAS, self included. Kathy Josh (Flamer) was obliquely relaying that a reputable source he knows did some destructive drop testing on a bunch of things including daisies and the Metolius PAS. As a result of these tests he is advising folks to use regular nylon daisies instead of the PAS. Josh, the problem with these tests isn't the results, but to some extent with both the tests and the interpretation of the what the results mean. First, and as you note, taking a dynamic fall on either a daisy or a PAS is a misuse of either - neither were ever designed to hold falls. As to your statement that people do sometimes make that mistake - true enough, it does sometimes happen - but, significant daisy falls ( from above the point of attachement) basically only ever happens when aiding, and again, improperly. Daisies are designed for aid; the PAS was never designed for nor recommended for use as a 'daisy' when aiding. Second, daisy chain pockets can and do blow around 300lbs and, in a bad fall you will ultimately either blow out a chain pocket or come to the end of the daisy - either way you will hopefully be brought ( broke) up short by the end loops. A PAS loop is made up of the same sling material and manner as a 22kn sling is, but due to the webbing on webbing connections inherent in the design they will fail somewhere around 18kn. A daisy tested just with endloops will likely test out a bit above that. The point, however, is that your body wouldn't survive either intact - you'd be busted up in a grand way regardless way before either of those loads. Third, the P.A.S. stands for 'Personal Anchor System' - not as a daisy. If you arrive at a belay and clip a solid anchor with a PAS and then fell off the stance to the end of the PAS you can still hurt yourself badly depending on how much PAS is out - but the odds of a slip from a belay on to the anchor via a PAS generating anywhere near the types of forces/loads I've just mentioned above are infintessimal to none. So in general, "misuse" is the operative word here for any failure of a daisy or a PAS and in this whole discussion. The difference is you possibly could, by a fluke or miscue, fall on a daisy from above the attachment point while aiding - that should never happen with a PAS. Used as intended, as a Personal Anchor System and where you are never above your anchor, you are not going to generate forces that would break one. Josh, the results you have implied are correct, your takeaway message is not, however. It's apples and oranges to an extent and the comparison of the failures is only valid for misuses of either, and an extreme misuse in the case of the PAS. As a daisy the PAS is an serious error in judgment; as an anchoring system the PAS is superior in everyway to a daisy.
That is an excellent, textbook and helpful response. Thank you.
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basilisk
May 30, 2007, 3:26 AM
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agreed! thanks!
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knieveltech
May 30, 2007, 3:30 AM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: You may use your screamer for extended periods of time untill you are both satisfyed. failing to satisfy your screamer may result in your screamer finding a new partner and denying you further access to the screamer. Useing propper protection when your screamer deploys is highly recomended. Failing to use proper protection when your screamer deploys may result in dammaged equiptment or the creation of a small smelly annoying little expensive screamer.
Haha classic
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flamer
May 31, 2007, 2:01 AM
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Healy,
Not only did you not get it. I assumed that you understood the reason I PM'd you was for the info to remain private. I do not appreciate your post,it is out of line and disrespectful.
I'm very glad I did not share all of the info with you and find it funny that you call these test's...oblique and destructive...both in what i interpret as an attempt to write them off. You do not even know what EXACTLY was done in the test's, thus your interpretations are useless.
Yes neither should be shock loaded as I noted, TO YOU, however situations regularly occur,in all types off climbing that could result in a force big enough for the PAS to fail, which is what was discovered in the drop tests. Yes the loops on a daisy can blow out. However there will not be catastrophic failure. Which is possible with the PAS.
The problem with the PAS is it's use of spectre. If they used Nylon it would be a superior device. Although the friction added in nylon to nylon contact would need to be studied.
You missed and left out some of the points.
If you wanted to discuss this you should have PMed me back directly. I'm sure you took the time to look up the "reputable source", in an effort to discredit what I told you. But they exsist and did the test's I said. So that didn't work.
josh
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healyje
May 31, 2007, 4:13 AM
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flamer wrote: Healy, Not only did you not get it. I assumed that you understood the reason I PM'd you was for the info to remain private. I do not appreciate your post,it is out of line and disrespectful.
Josh, if you didn't want to discuss the issue you shouldn't have interjected it into a completely different topic. And, let's be clear, neither you nor anyone else should be slamming a product without citing any of the information whatsoever. No matter how you slice it, that's oblique, unsubstantiated innuendo - and I'm not the only one calling you on it here. And there is no problem discussing such issues openly, just as I have with the Mammut 8mm Slings testing I've had done.
flamer wrote: I'm very glad I did not share all of the info with you and find it funny that you call these test's...oblique and destructive...both in what i interpret as an attempt to write them off. You do not even know what EXACTLY was done in the test's, thus your interpretations are useless.
Again, you shared enough to understand exactly what went on. When you state that a PAS was tested to failure, that is the very definition is 'destructive testing' as opposed to 'non-destructive testing' - it's a technical term for the type of testing done - not my opinion of them. Your claim, and not the testing, is what was 'oblique' (def: Indirect or evasive) and you alone are responsible for that. Again, don't publicly slam a product without backing it up. As for my interpretations, they are spot on - all I needed to know is they tested to failure.
flamer wrote: Yes neither should be shock loaded as I noted, TO YOU, however situations regularly occur,in all types off climbing that could result in a force big enough for the PAS to fail, which is what was discovered in the drop tests. Yes the loops on a daisy can blow out. However there will not be catastrophic failure. Which is possible with the PAS.
No, situations do not regularly occur which could result in a force big enough for the PAS to fail in all types of climbing. Outside of using a daisy or a PAS improperly when aiding, such situations essentially never occur. I also checked with Metolius as well - there has never been a PAS failure of any kind. A 'catastrophic failure' is not possible with the PAS unless misused in the extreme and your body would be a wreck at far lesser forces.
If you or your source, which I did not name or even characterize, have evidence to the contrary then you or they should by all means trot it out - Metolius would love to see it - they are all about facts and have no problem with someone putting their products to the test so long as it is valid, relevant testing.
flamer wrote: The problem with the PAS is it's use of spectre. If they used Nylon it would be a superior device. Although the friction added in nylon to nylon contact would need to be studied. You missed and left out some of the points.
Quite the contrary, it would not be a superior device. To make such a device hold a standard 22kn or more I'm guessing it would be bulky and no one would use it. Again, the PAS already breaks at strengths far greater the human body was ever designed to handle. It is more than fine as an anchoring device.
flamer wrote: If you wanted to discuss this you should have PMed me back directly. I'm sure you took the time to look up the "reputable source", in an effort to discredit what I told you. But they exsist and did the test's I said. So that didn't work.
Josh, I'm a PAS user myself and the reason folks gave you a rasher of shit over this is you slammed a product obliquely with the innuendo of failure without providing substantiation of any kind. Again, I have every faith the folks you said did the testing are entirely legitimate and the test results they reported were accurate. The point of debate isn't how reputable they are, or the accuracy of their testing, it's the applicability and relevance of that testing to climbing and the legitimate use of a PAS that is in dispute. I have no interest in discrediting you, them, or any of those facts. I'm simply telling you either your or their interpretation of what those results mean to a climber using either a daisy or a PAS is a mischaracterization of the facts involved.
I'm sorry, but you've conducted this conversation badly relative to both interjecting it into an unrelated thread when it deserved a thread of its own; by not stating facts clearly; and by not substantiating any of what you did say. My interpretation is correct given the facts you pm'd me. As I said, I would very much encourage you or your friends to both post up the specifics of the testing methodology, the actual results, and their technical interpretation of those results as well as contact Metolius with the same.
What on earth is the point of all the secrecy? No one here needs it, Metolius certainly doesn't require it, and no one will think the less of you or your source. Like I said, I've had similar independent testing done on my own Mammut 8mm slings for the past two years and both published it and shared the results with Mammut. Exactly what is the problem with a clear and open discussion of this issue?
(This post was edited by healyje on May 31, 2007, 7:15 AM)
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musicman1586
May 31, 2007, 4:53 AM
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One of the best posts I've read in a while.
Josh, you are the reason why I don't get involved in conversations on here as often as I would like to these days, it is people like you who make it useless to try and talk on these forums. Your a bag of hot air, you have nothing worthwhile to say, and I do hope that a moderator bans you quite soon so we can get rid of your useless banter, you provide nothing to topics, and in truth you have detracted from this one by making it come to a screeching halt because you felt the need to argue instead of just back yourself up with the information that you have. Please, take you and your rubbish to some other website and stop polluting this one.
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healyje
May 31, 2007, 5:04 AM
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I don't know, that's a little harsh. I know for a fact Josh does have some good things to contribute and has, this one is just not one of his best efforts and he's gotten a bit surely once people called him on it.
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flamer
May 31, 2007, 1:05 PM
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Healy,
Although i do have some respect for you and some of your post's I disagree with you on this completely.
I'm very diappointed in your posting information I gave you in private.
Musicman,
If all it takes to keep your idiot mouth shut, is for me to say something. Than I'll be responding to everything you say.
josh
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Valarc
May 31, 2007, 1:53 PM
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healyje wrote: Quite the contrary, it would not be a superior device. To make such a device hold a standard 22kn or more I'm guessing it would be bulky and no one would use it.
Sterling makes a nylon version of the PAS, which was just pointed out to me in another thread a few days ago. It's called the "chain reactor" and is virtually impossible to actually find anyone selling the thing. I emailed sterling to ask if they knew of a dealer who sells them, but haven't gotten a response yet. I also can't find much information about this device online at all - there is very little in the way of testing, strength, etc. All Sterling says AFAIK is that it held 3 falls, which I'm guessing is the same as the number of falls rating on a rope.
http://www.sterlingrope.com/...roducts3.asp?pmid=14
Now whether it's a superior device or not is up in the air, but at least one company thought it was worth making.
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basilisk
May 31, 2007, 4:39 PM
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i'm not too interested in being involved in this anymore, but there's two things i wanted to point out:
1) the PAS isn't exclusively spectra, the black and red fibers are nylon. besides, the Metolius website says they're made out of their proprietary Power Webbing. i'll be honest, i don't know what that is, but it isn't necessarily spectra
2) testing has shown that spectra is significantly weakened over time. after it's held a couple falls it's pretty much equal to nylon on every aspect
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flamer
May 31, 2007, 5:01 PM
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basilisk wrote: 2) testing has shown that spectra is significantly weakened over time. after it's held a couple falls it's pretty much equal to nylon on every aspect
Except that it NEVER has any dynamic qualities. Which is why spectra(or it's many knock off's) is not a good material for anytype of "tether".
josh
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Valarc
May 31, 2007, 5:14 PM
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First, I'd love to see a link to testing that shows that spectra is "equal to nylon on every aspect" after it's held a few falls.
The elasticity of nylon is far better than spectra, and I don't see "weakening" fibers as somehow magically increasing their elasticity. Every thing I've read supports what is shown in John Long's latest edition of 'Climbing Anchors' - high tech fibers, while attaining a great strength to weight ratio, invariably fare worse than plain old nylon during dynamic loading, due to their low melting points and lack of elasticity.
I've seen plenty of comparisons where, on the first drop, spectra broke and nylon held - how exactly is the spectra gonna be "pretty much equal to nylon" when it's snapped in half?
As far as relating directly to the PAS/Chain Reactor debate - as I said, there's not much out there on the web about the CR because it's a fairly new product, but here's one link from a canyoneering forum
http://www.alpinets.com/...a9ae799f9c1d29d0b534
Here, the claim is that the CR held on three factor 2 falls, and the PAS failed on the first one. Considering all the testing I've seen that shows similar results when comparing nylon and spectra, I have little reason to question these results.
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Valarc
May 31, 2007, 5:16 PM
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By the way, while I seem to at least marginally be agreeing with Flamer's argument here, I agree with many of the rest of you that he's an utter douchebag for making all kinds of claims about testing and then refusing to provide any details.
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basilisk
May 31, 2007, 5:27 PM
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flamer wrote: basilisk wrote: 2) testing has shown that spectra is significantly weakened over time. after it's held a couple falls it's pretty much equal to nylon on every aspect Except that it NEVER has any dynamic qualities. Which is why spectra(or it's many knock off's) is not a good material for anytype of "tether". josh
and thus my point, that ultimately you're relying more on the nylon than you are the spectra (if it even IS spectra).
and as healyj has pointed out, it's fine for use as a tether, because you aren't falling on it.
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healyje
May 31, 2007, 6:00 PM
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That's right, the whole discussion is about "what if I grossly misused this product?" The first result of that misuse would be busting your body up quite badly because we aren't talking about force on the anchor - we're talking about force applied directly to your body. Don't kid yourself - the Sterling device will rip you up just as badly as the PAS - the nylon over that distance isn't going to mitigate the damage to you. Again, you NEVER wan't to fall on either of these devices or a daisy - ever. Slipping off your belay stance onto a PAS is never going to break it. If this non-issue is a concern to you - by all means get the Sterling Product instead.
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flamer
May 31, 2007, 8:09 PM
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healyje wrote: That's right, the whole discussion is about "what if I grossly misused this product?"
I'm curious, healy, have you ever taken a daisy fall?
I have. twice. Hurt like hell. But I was actually not harmed. I didn't break the nylon daisy I was using.
People "grossly misuse" climbing products all the time. Ever hear of someone soloing on a Grigri? IS it rated for that?
When was the last time you did some devious descent? Rappel's from trees or slung blocks way out on the edge...did you clip your "tether" to the sling's before stepping out to thread the rope? What if you slipped?
But that never happens right? No one would ever do anything like that! And slip!! I've got to be kidding!
Keep your head in the dirt and soon your body will join it.
josh
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majid_sabet
May 31, 2007, 8:15 PM
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flamer wrote: healyje wrote: That's right, the whole discussion is about "what if I grossly misused this product?" I'm curious, healy, have you ever taken a daisy fall? I have. twice. Hurt like hell. But I was actually not harmed. I didn't break the nylon daisy I was using. People "grossly misuse" climbing products all the time. Ever hear of someone soloing on a Grigri? IS it rated for that? When was the last time you did some devious descent? Rappel's from trees or slung blocks way out on the edge...did you clip your "tether" to the sling's before stepping out to thread the rope? What if you slipped? But that never happens right? No one would ever do anything like that! And slip!! I've got to be kidding! Keep your head in the dirt and soon your body will join it. josh
Flamer
Have you seen my photos of broken daisy ?
http://www.rockclimbing.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on May 31, 2007, 8:18 PM)
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healyje
May 31, 2007, 8:29 PM
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flamer wrote: I'm curious, healy, have you ever taken a daisy fall? I have. twice. Hurt like hell. But I was actually not harmed. I didn't break the nylon daisy I was using.
No, I haven't and don't plan on taking one. That you didn't break the nylon daisy means nothing. As the pictures posted upthread amply display, nylon daisies do break and quite often in daisy falls.
flamer wrote: People "grossly misuse" climbing products all the time. Ever hear of someone soloing on a Grigri? IS it rated for that?
People do sometimes "grossly misuse" climbing products and quite often pay a high price for doing so. Products are not designed for such misuse. As for roped soloing, an easy 50% of the last thirty years of my climbing has been roped soloing, much of it in the last decade on a grigri. Nothing about that application of a grigri is a "gross misuse" of the product - it may not be a designed use, or a rated use, but it in no way constitutes "gross misuse".
flamer wrote: When was the last time you did some devious descent? Rappel's from trees or slung blocks way out on the edge...did you clip your "tether" to the sling's before stepping out to thread the rope? What if you slipped?
Josh, I've been climbing for 33 years and long before any of this fancy gear was ever available. I was climbing on goldline waist wraps in JC Penny workboots - we had no cams and no locking biners. I've seen every kind of funky gear ever made and seen almost all of it misused at one time or another. But in the context of this discussion of the PAS the only way you'd have even a remote chance of breaking one is if you fell on its full length from above an anchor - slipping off your stance is not going to break one. And again, any force that would break one would likely damage you so bad you'd wish you were dead.
In reply to: Keep your head in the dirt and soon your body will join it.
Thirty-three years later I'm still putting up reasonably hard groundup, onsight, trad FA's and have never been seriously hurt. If you're still around and climbing in another decade or so we can have that particular discussion again because I know I'll still be climbing then.
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flamer
Jun 1, 2007, 4:53 AM
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Majid,
I see several pic's of Daisy's using spectre that have completely failed and 1 pic of a nylon daisy that has pockets blown but did not completely fail. Oh! And 1 pic of an ADC breaking at the cam buckle.
Am I missing something?
josh
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healyje
Jun 1, 2007, 5:40 AM
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Neither will a PAS when used for anchoring - and none ever have.
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flamer
Jun 1, 2007, 9:14 PM
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healyje wrote: flamer wrote: flamer wrote: When was the last time you did some devious descent? Rappel's from trees or slung blocks way out on the edge...did you clip your "tether" to the sling's before stepping out to thread the rope? What if you slipped? Josh, I've been climbing for 33 years and long before any of this fancy gear was ever available. I was climbing on goldline waist wraps in JC Penny workboots - we had no cams and no locking biners. I've seen every kind of funky gear ever made and seen almost all of it misused at one time or another. But in the context of this discussion of the PAS the only way you'd have even a remote chance of breaking one is if you fell on its full length from above an anchor - slipping off your stance is not going to break one. And again, any force that would break one would likely damage you so bad you'd wish you were dead. Answer the question. Sure seems like a classic example of a situation where shock loading a "tether" of any kind could be a problem. It's also an example of a situation that happens ALL THE TIME. josh
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healyje
Jun 1, 2007, 10:51 PM
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flamer wrote: [Answer the question.
I did. The only way you are going to load a PAS with anywhere near the forces you're suggesting might break one is if you were to drop the entire length of the PAS from directly above the anchor. Slipping from the anchor or below or beside isn't going to do it even remotely. You also have to take into account the difference between a static load like a concrete block and the more dynamic load of a soft human body in a harness - one dissapates a certain amount of the force and the other doesn't.
Look, there is no problem of any kind with you or your friends posting their data and conclusions here and sending them to Metolius for them to respond directly to this issue if you really want to pursue this issue. It would be far more productive than you and I bantering about.
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