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LostinMaine
Jun 1, 2007, 3:32 PM
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So I was climbing the other day and came across an interesting anchor dilemma and I'm looking for thoughts on it.
The route is 3 pitches. Pitch 1 is a 60' 5.8 crack. Pitch 2 is a 40' traverse that starts on a small ledge. The ledge peters out and you undercling a nice finger crack under a roof to the roof's edge. Pitch 3 follows the right-facing corner of the roof and take a 5.9 fist crack to the top (maybe 100').
When I climbed the route, I linked pitch 1 and 2 because I was lazy and didn't want to build another anchor. The traverse was easy.. maybe 5.6ish. So, my question is on the anchor setting up the last pitch. You have two options here: either build a gear anchor in the finger crack and kiss the roof for a while on a hanging belay or downclimb 10' of 5.8 slab to a 2-bolt anchor (why it's placed there is beyond me).
So, what I did was downclimb to the anchor, connected with an atomic clip and belayed off my harness. I didn't like it at all because when my second came up, I was belaying off my harness while he had 15 feet of rope out, facing a pendulum swing on the anchor if he greased off.
I know its hard to visualize a setup without see it sometimes, but I think my solution next time would have been to climb out to the very edge of the roof, place a piece there and then downclimb, protecting myself from above (and facing serious rope drag for a bit). When my second would have cleaned, I would have had him leave the last piece in and just get to the anchor. Assuming I was leading the last pitch again, we'd just need to pull the rope through the last protection piece and carry on as normal. I was worried about seriously shockloading a gear anchor in the finger crack on a pendulum fall.
Would you have rather built an anchor in the crack or used the bolts?
cheers
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charlet_poser
Jun 1, 2007, 4:03 PM
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I think I see what it looks like (in my head). If your second is going to lead the last pitch, I would have left the last piece in and downclimbed to the anchor. That wasy, as the second, I would still be on TR. When it's time to lead, the 1st piece is already in. If the second isnt leading, do the same, but clip into the anchor with daiseys or slings and saw end of the rope, now you've got your first piece in and the second never risked a 30' factor 2.
hope I understood this right.
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reg
Jun 1, 2007, 4:06 PM
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apparently you had no pro for the traverse either - had you placed some gear for yourself, 2nd would have been covered. the high piece could be used as your first or second piece off the belay.
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cracklover
Jun 1, 2007, 4:47 PM
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You already know the answer to your question: The anchor needs to be up there in either the undercling under the roof or at the finger crack. The way you set it up, if the second comes off, they're taking a 40 foot nearly factor two swinging fall onto your anchor. That's unacceptable. And if the anchor is going to be up there, you may as well be, too. If being too close to the roof is uncomfortable, just extend yourself a little from the anchor with your tie in rope. You do anchor with the rope, right?
GO
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csproul
Jun 1, 2007, 5:33 PM
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Anchoring at the high spot is one option, but not the only safe one. A well placed piece in the crack (I'd probably even back it up since it is a pretty crucial piece), and then lead down to the bolts to anchor. When your second arrives, they would leave the high piece(s) in and have a TR down to the anchor. If you are leading the next pitch, you'll need to pull the rope through (or some might untie and swap ends) or if your second is leading the next pitch, their first gear is already set.
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LostinMaine
Jun 1, 2007, 6:12 PM
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cracklover wrote: You do anchor with the rope, right?
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this. I commonly use my rope in the anchoring system in some way, whether clove hitching multiple pieces in a vertical crack, clove hitching a master point, or an atomic clip. Do you mean anchor with the rope in some other way?
reg wrote: apparently you had no pro for the traverse either - had you placed some gear for yourself, 2nd would have been covered. the high piece could be used as your first or second piece off the belay.
The traverse itself was well protected, but with down climbing 10 feet to the anchors, there was no way to reduce the fall that the second would have taken had he pulled the last piece on the traverse.
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j_ung
Jun 1, 2007, 6:13 PM
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Is it possible the bolts are intended as a mid-point rap station and not a belay anchor at all? Are they there for another route entirely? Were you off route? (I guess those don't matter much at this point. Just tossing out some things to think on for next time.)
csproul's idea seemed good to me. Anchoring high seemed better, though.
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cracklover
Jun 1, 2007, 6:57 PM
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csproul wrote: Anchoring at the high spot is one option, but not the only safe one. A well placed piece in the crack (I'd probably even back it up since it is a pretty crucial piece)...
This is essentially the same thing. Point is - you want enough gear there that it will not pull. That, by definition, is an anchor.
Slightly different situation, but I once had a directional for a TR setup. Was just one tricam. Second fell many times at the crux, and eventually ripped the tricam (it was in a so-so placement). Caused the second to fall 10 feet. He was fine, but it was absolutely and completely my mistake, and should never have happened. And it could have been a lot worse if I hadn't realized the danger and taken some steps to ameliorate the situation as it was happening.
Point is, there should never be one piece between your second and a catastrophic lead fall if you can help it, and in this situation, you definitely could have helped it, simply by building an anchor at the high point.
I regards to anchoring in with the rope, yup, I mean exactly what you thought - attaching yourself to the anchor with your tie in rope (whether clove hitch or otherwise is up to you).
GO
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moose_droppings
Jun 1, 2007, 8:07 PM
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Seems that an anchor below a traverse needs to be rethought, or maybe Jays right about being off route (possible?).
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Jun 1, 2007, 8:25 PM)
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reno
Jun 1, 2007, 11:59 PM
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LostinMaine wrote: or an atomic clip.
OK, I gotta ask, just for my clarification if nothing else.
What do you mean by "Atomic clip"? I probably know it, just not by that name.
You can PM me, if you wish, to avoid thread drift.
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LostinMaine
Jun 2, 2007, 12:34 AM
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reno wrote: LostinMaine wrote: or an atomic clip. OK, I gotta ask, just for my clarification if nothing else. What do you mean by "Atomic clip"? I probably know it, just not by that name. You can PM me, if you wish, to avoid thread drift.
bowline on a bight. You can adjust the two loop lengths if need be. I use it commonly as a quick anchor setup on bolted anchors.
As for being off route, the bolted anchor is the top of the next climb over. I suppose it could be argued that I was off route by using it. As a side note, this is one of the few trad routes in a predominately sport climbing area. They even have put some bolts up next to the crack for "optional" protection for those used to clipping bolts only. So, if they bolted next to a protectable feature, my guess is that this anchor was intended to be communal between the routes... It's just in a poorly chosen place and I would have been better off ignoring it.
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rocknice2
Jun 2, 2007, 2:34 AM
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I'm not sure if you did this or not, so I'm not flaming you. On a traverse the leader must protect the harder move before[4 leader] and after[4 second]. Going down wasn't necessarily a bad choice, if you had a bomber piece or two in the transition between traverse and down climb. If your going to continue up the second can leave that pro in place and just TR it down. If your not or your not sure where you will Just protect the down climb so the second will be leading in reverse. Place thee pro under the harder moves.
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dan2see
Jun 2, 2007, 5:11 AM
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j_ung wrote: Is it possible the bolts are intended as a mid-point rap station and not a belay anchor at all?
That is the practice at Kid Goat, too. Somebody warned me to stay away from the "rap stations" when looking for the anchors at the top of my pitch.
I don't understand the policy of separate rap stations. Maybe something to do with optimum rap distance? With me, it's a problem, because on that crag it's really easy to go off-route.
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gunkiemike
Jun 2, 2007, 11:16 AM
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Bottom line - making an unpro'ed downclimb after a traverse pitch is just bad news. I hope your second gave you an appropriate dose of sh:t about it.
If they had no gear ahead of them at the tough bit of the traverse, then that's even worse.
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tomcat
Jun 2, 2007, 1:35 PM
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You have the right idea.Do the traverse,place one bomber,or two decent pieces in the beginning of the next pitch,climb,or lower to the anchor,belay mate over,all set for next pitch.Maybe skip Atomic clip and do something more easily switched if you will be leading the next pitch,like two draws,one each bolt,you clip higher biner,mate clips lower.
No one said we had to be stupid or uncomfortable.Don't overlook this approach on routes with sketch belay anchors or difficult moves right off the belay too.On steep ice I sometimes build an anchor,clip through,climb up ten feet,place a stout screw,ease myself back to the belay.If your bud is leading off,he/she is good to go,if you are,just pull the rope through.
Sometimes there is no good gear for the beginning of the next pitch.Then I will belay a little lower,and use the normal anchor as the first piece.
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billl7
Jun 2, 2007, 1:49 PM
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Thanks for posting about it.
Trad leaders are sort of conditioned to look for the most secure/convenient looking belay station. Good to be reminded that there are exceptions.
Climb on!
(This post was edited by billl7 on Jun 2, 2007, 1:50 PM)
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justthemaid
Jun 3, 2007, 12:02 AM
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I think I actually would have used the bolts as well. I know what you mean about being in an uncomfortable spot with a shelf of rock in your face.
I probably would have built a mini-anchor under the roof (couple of equalized pieces) before going down to the bolts, then would have just had the second leave those pieces in place to protect for the swing scenario while he climbed down to join me at the bolts. The next leader just takes off from there with the first pieces already in place.
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LostinMaine
Jun 3, 2007, 11:20 AM
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gunkiemike wrote: Bottom line - making an unpro'ed downclimb after a traverse pitch is just bad news. I hope your second gave you an appropriate dose of sh:t about it.
no worries, I gave myself enough of a tongue lashing for both of us. This was the first time in my climbing career that I truly felt my second was in danger. This is why I posted about it... to get thoughts on it.
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papounet
Jun 3, 2007, 11:38 AM
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LostinMaine wrote: You have two options here: either build a gear anchor in the finger crack and kiss the roof for a while on a hanging belay or downclimb 10' of 5.8 slab to a 2-bolt anchor (why it's placed there is beyond me).
IMHO, the rap station is placed there because it is probably difficult for a rapeller to get to the anchor snug under a roof.
I you throw the rope over the roof, I am inclined to think it would naturally fall close to the belay bolt
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cellardoor
Jun 4, 2007, 6:42 PM
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what's wrong with the hanging belay? I've made those on traverse pitches before. Is it just the comfort of having 2 bolts? in that case, get more comfortable with hanging gear anchors if you want. Then the situation would be moot.
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notch
Jun 4, 2007, 10:26 PM
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cracklover wrote: Slightly different situation, but I once had a directional for a TR setup. Was just one tricam. Second fell many times at the crux, and eventually ripped the tricam (it was in a so-so placement). Caused the second to fall 10 feet. He was fine, but it was absolutely and completely my mistake, and should never have happened. And it could have been a lot worse if I hadn't realized the danger and taken some steps to ameliorate the situation as it was happening.
Ameliorate?!
Jeez Gabe, you just gave half of the members of this site a headache. Why come you gots to use such fancy words? You ain't no better than us no how.
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cracklover
Jun 5, 2007, 2:26 AM
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notch wrote: cracklover wrote: Slightly different situation, but I once had a directional for a TR setup. Was just one tricam. Second fell many times at the crux, and eventually ripped the tricam (it was in a so-so placement). Caused the second to fall 10 feet. He was fine, but it was absolutely and completely my mistake, and should never have happened. And it could have been a lot worse if I hadn't realized the danger and taken some steps to ameliorate the situation as it was happening. Ameliorate?! Jeez Gabe, you just gave half of the members of this site a headache. Why come you gots to use such fancy words? You ain't no better than us no how.
Well if I must tell everyone how stupid I've been, at least leave me the shred of dignity to try to sound smart while I do it. 
GO
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LostinMaine
Jun 5, 2007, 11:28 PM
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cellardoor wrote: what's wrong with the hanging belay? I've made those on traverse pitches before. Is it just the comfort of having 2 bolts? in that case, get more comfortable with hanging gear anchors if you want. Then the situation would be moot.
The problem with the hanging belay in this instance would have been making a suitable gear anchor that could withstand swinging falls and upward forces for the second pitch. It was a thin horizontal crack on granite with a lot of shotty quartz crystals. I wouldn't have felt great about it. My anchors rarely cause me alarm, but no matter how well I exploited the crack, I would have been concerned about its holding power. That was the main reason I went down to the anchors.
Needless to say, I would do things differently next time.
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fjclimbsrocks
Jun 5, 2007, 11:45 PM
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csproul wrote: Anchoring at the high spot is one option, but not the only safe one. A well placed piece in the crack (I'd probably even back it up since it is a pretty crucial piece), and then lead down to the bolts to anchor. When your second arrives, they would leave the high piece(s) in and have a TR down to the anchor. If you are leading the next pitch, you'll need to pull the rope through (or some might untie and swap ends) or if your second is leading the next pitch, their first gear is already set.
My thoughts exactly. Was it possible to link the second two pitches instead of the first two? That might have worked too.
~Jared
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