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rcparadise
Jun 20, 2007, 10:32 PM
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I was belaying a leader last evening up a single pitch climb, and it occurred to me that I wasn't prepared properly to actually catch a leader fall. I did have an anchor tied around a tree at the base of the cliff, which was good, but it could have been a bit tighter to me. Presumably, if he had fallen I would have been pulled forcefully upwards and the anchor and the climbing rope would have stretched somewhat. But what about rope slippage through the belay device? Is this to be expected, or is slippage something you want to avoid? Wouldn't you want to be wearing a glove to belay? I read a report in Accidents in North American Mountaineering about a second who had to be rescued from a climb (I think
El Capitan) where he caught a big leader fall but his hand was badly burned.
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silascl
Jun 20, 2007, 10:52 PM
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I would get some 1 on 1 or small group instruction from an experienced belayer. If you had a specific question to your technique, we might be able to help, but it appears you don't understand the whole process.
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saxfiend
Jun 20, 2007, 11:02 PM
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From your post, it's clear you've never caught a leader fall; have you even had any training in belaying a leader? It doesn't sound like it.
Under normal circumstances, it's neither necessary nor desirable to be anchored while belaying. This can make for a harder catch, which you especially don't want if you're belaying a trad leader. It also locks you into a position where you can't dodge rockfall.
Yes, if your leader falls, you quite possibly will get pulled upwards. Unless the leader outweighs you by a considerable margin, this upward pull won't be much, and as long as the leader isn't too close to the ground when they fall, it's no big deal.
Rope slippage may occur if the fall is forceful enough; my experience is that rope slippage isn't significant. What's important is that you stay in control of the brake end. If that takes gloves, wear them. I haven't found a need for gloves yet.
It would really be good for you to get some hands-on guidance on the ins and outs of lead belaying.
JL
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Tuwie
Jun 20, 2007, 11:06 PM
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Gloves - Some people swear by them while others wont even bother with them. It's mostly a matter of preference and which belay device you are using.
Rope Slippage - Allowing the rope to slip a bit through your belay device will give a more dynamic belay, which will slow the leaders fall a little more gradually.
Hope that helps.
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studclimber
Jun 21, 2007, 12:54 AM
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i second what saxfiend said, every bit of it. you shouldn't be anchored, unless on a multipitch climb, and then only to keep you from falling off the face. and I think you should get some instruction.
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rcparadise
Jun 21, 2007, 1:22 AM
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Thanks for the responses. I'm surprised, though, about your comment Saxfiend, seconded by Studclimber, about not wanting to be anchored. I'm actually not a beginner -- perhaps this was the wrong place to post. My multipitch trad climbing has all been done with guides -- these guys don't fall on 5.7 or 8 terrain. We're talking about a leader fall here, someone close to the ground. There wasn't much rope out, and I believe the impact would have been tremendous. I was even toproping recently and a guy heavier than me pulled me almost out of control, being unanchored. And I distinctly remember during a rock climbing course, that an anchor was suggested even for toproping. Tuwie, your response was right on, and answered the question I had asked.
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knieveltech
Jun 21, 2007, 1:29 AM
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rcparadise wrote: I was belaying a leader last evening up a single pitch climb, and it occurred to me that I wasn't prepared properly to actually catch a leader fall. I did have an anchor tied around a tree at the base of the cliff, which was good, but it could have been a bit tighter to me. Presumably, if he had fallen I would have been pulled forcefully upwards and the anchor and the climbing rope would have stretched somewhat. But what about rope slippage through the belay device? Is this to be expected, or is slippage something you want to avoid? Wouldn't you want to be wearing a glove to belay? I read a report in Accidents in North American Mountaineering about a second who had to be rescued from a climb (I think El Capitan) where he caught a big leader fall but his hand was badly burned.
I caught my first 30'er a while back and when my climber hit the end of the rope I didn't budge an inch, the rope didn't run, nothing. It was like catching a toprope fall only the climber dropped for a while longer. Admittedly I've got about 40-50lb on my climber, so your mileage may vary. In the mean time folks have posted up some good advice for this question, if you have access to more experienced climbers in your area you might want to discuss your concerns with them. I doubt anyone would miss out on the chance to help someone work on their belaying skills.
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breals
Jun 21, 2007, 1:53 AM
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i always anchor when belaying a lead climber (unless i'm significantly heavier and it's only one pitch). I learned the hard way: i was catapaulted face first into the rock after catching about a 15-20 footer. the climber weighed about he same as i did. I'd say i was lucky to be conscious. Granted i had one hand free, but the force with which i was yanked to the rock, and given the akward position i was a bloody mess.
(the climb was Cheers, at Happy Hour Crag; Boulder Canyon) my buddy didn't use the suggested gear: brass (didn't have any at that point) only the bolts, and peeled right before the anchor.
But, i've also caught a few lead falls and barley felt it. I still anchor from now on though.
Ice is different though, ice fall is far more common than rock fall so anchoring is a bit more sketchy.
(This post was edited by breals on Jun 21, 2007, 2:07 AM)
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silascl
Jun 21, 2007, 2:08 AM
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rcparadise wrote: Thanks for the responses. I'm surprised, though, about your comment Saxfiend, seconded by Studclimber, about not wanting to be anchored. I'm actually not a beginner -- perhaps this was the wrong place to post. My multipitch trad climbing has all been done with guides -- these guys don't fall on 5.7 or 8 terrain. We're talking about a leader fall here, someone close to the ground. There wasn't much rope out, and I believe the impact would have been tremendous. I was even toproping recently and a guy heavier than me pulled me almost out of control, being unanchored. And I distinctly remember during a rock climbing course, that an anchor was suggested even for toproping. Tuwie, your response was right on, and answered the question I had asked.
I regularly belay someone the same weight as I (give or take 10 pounds) and when he takes a fall I often get pulled up in the air.
This isn't a bad thing. I've never been pulled 'into the rock'. If you stand under the first piece of protection, you get pulled up in the air. If you stand 10 ft. back from the wall then you'll get slammed into the wall in the event of a leader fall. This is one of the main reasons a lead belayer needs to think about how they position themselves relative to the climber.
What is the weight difference between you and your partner such that their fall almost pulled you out of control? Sounds like there is a serious failure in your future if you don't get instruction from someone who knows what they're doing.
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niccast
Jun 21, 2007, 2:31 AM
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breals wrote: I learned the hard way: i was catapaulted face first into the rock after catching about a 15-20 footer. the climber weighed about he same as i did. I'd say i was lucky to be conscious. Granted i had one hand free, but the force with which i was yanked to the rock, and given the akward position i was a bloody mess.
For this reason, I've been told not to stand very far back from the rock...if you stand directly under the first piece then you'll get yanked up, not in toward the rock. Alternatively, if you could stand to the side of the first piece, but still near the rock to avoid a painful and potentially dangerous collision.
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saxfiend
Jun 21, 2007, 3:05 AM
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breals wrote: I learned the hard way: i was catapaulted face first into the rock after catching about a 15-20 footer.
Unlike so many aspects of climbing, correct belaying position seems so intuitive that I can't understand why people continue to make this elementary mistake.
JL
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breals
Jun 21, 2007, 3:11 AM
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what if there was an overhang or some nasty looking rock right above?
personally i don't want to get pulled up either. why not just use an anchor?
(This post was edited by breals on Jun 21, 2007, 3:16 AM)
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saxfiend
Jun 21, 2007, 3:22 AM
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rcparadise wrote: I was even toproping recently and a guy heavier than me pulled me almost out of control, being unanchored.
If on the other hand you mean that you got pulled upward by the fall, there's no reason for that to cause you a loss of control. Belayers often jump in a lead fall to give their climber a softer catch. As long as you maintain your control of the brake hand, all that's going to happen is that you'll be hanging in the air, locked off. I've had that happen many times with climbers who outweigh me, and it's no big deal.
I think you'd benefit from going to a sport area and getting a willing (and experienced) partner to take some lead falls for you. Small falls at first, then longer ones as you get accustomed to the physical effects. Nothing beats experience.
Tuwie wrote: Allowing the rope to slip a bit through your belay device will give a more dynamic belay, which will slow the leaders fall a little more gradually.
JL
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catskillshiker
Jun 21, 2007, 3:25 AM
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Being unanchored also gives you the option to jump up at the right moment to give a dynamic belay.
Kris
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saxfiend
Jun 21, 2007, 3:27 AM
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breals wrote: what if there was an overhang or some nasty looking rock right above?
breals wrote: personally i don't want to get pulled up either. why not just use an anchor?
JL
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the_leech
Jun 21, 2007, 3:47 AM
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rcparadise wrote: I'm actually not a beginner... My multipitch trad climbing has all been done with guides... |
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studclimber
Jun 21, 2007, 3:53 AM
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Guides will alwalys say to be anchored, for safety's sake, to cover themselves for insurance purposes. You have to be able to move around underneaht the leader, in order to help keep the rope out of their way until they make the first placement. I am telling you, as a mountaineering instructor, that being anchored is not always a sure-fire way to avoid injury, to yourself or the leader. sure, you might get pulled up a bit, but if the leader and you don't have a huge wight difference, the pull is minimal at best. just last weekend, my friend and I were out doing some crack routes. he ran it out a bit, and took a 15 ft. leader fall. This was on the first pitch, and I was not anchored. I was pulled up, but my feet never even left the ground. You just need to be prepared to be pulled a bit. sure, sometimes it's uncomfortable, but so is much of climbing. Most of the guys I climb with, many of whom are guides and instructors, do not anchor themsleves down at the bottom of a climb. it is a personal decision, but with experience, proper training, and sound judgement, it is not a super-difficult decision to make.
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doctordave84
Jun 21, 2007, 4:12 AM
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two weeks ago my partner for the day, a fresh, was belaying me, and when i started to fall, he didnt catch. I plummeted 30 feet. only thing that left me walking afterward was catching the rope. Got the burn as reward. That said, gloves may have their place if you feel like making stupid mistakes or goofing off, but in a controlled setting with proper equipment, rarely nessicary.
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knieveltech
Jun 21, 2007, 4:13 AM
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saxfiend wrote: breals wrote: I learned the hard way: i was catapaulted face first into the rock after catching about a 15-20 footer. You may have learned the hard way, but you learned the wrong lesson. You weren't pulled into the rock because of not being anchored; it happened because you weren't up next to the rock, where the fall impact would have pulled you upwards. Unlike so many aspects of climbing, correct belaying position seems so intuitive that I can't understand why people continue to make this elementary mistake. JL
I would suspect there are likely two reasons for this:
1. gym setups normally involve anchoring in well away from the climb
2. Likely the dangers of the zipper effect aren't being adequately stressed. To be sure this isn't likely to ever be a concern of someone on a sport route, but it's kind of a creepy thought that there are faceless masses of belayers out there being taught all kinds of sketchy nonsense and getting away with it because the routes they happen to frequent are bolted. Ground school for me this fall, hellllls yes.
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saxfiend
Jun 21, 2007, 4:23 AM
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knieveltech wrote: 2. Likely the dangers of the zipper effect aren't being adequately stressed.
JL
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majid_sabet
Jun 21, 2007, 4:51 AM
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rcparadise wrote: I was belaying a leader last evening up a single pitch climb, and it occurred to me that I wasn't prepared properly to actually catch a leader fall. I did have an anchor tied around a tree at the base of the cliff, which was good, but it could have been a bit tighter to me. Presumably, if he had fallen I would have been pulled forcefully upwards and the anchor and the climbing rope would have stretched somewhat. But what about rope slippage through the belay device? Is this to be expected, or is slippage something you want to avoid? Wouldn't you want to be wearing a glove to belay? I read a report in Accidents in North American Mountaineering about a second who had to be rescued from a climb (I think El Capitan) where he caught a big leader fall but his hand was badly burned.
I think it was summer of 1999 or 2000 on El Cap , leader took a 70 footer and passed belay and bang his head . rope ran thru belay's right hand cut him 2 inches deep. By 6 am rescue team was on top of nose and ran 600 footer+ to him and brought him up . It got dark and hilo could not come so every one including injured climber slept on top . It was one cold night , the next day hilo came in and took every one down.Same afternoon, falling climber checked out of hospital in Modesto with no injuries and brought a 6 pack to valley to say thank you.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Jun 21, 2007, 4:55 AM)
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jakedatc
Jun 21, 2007, 5:22 AM
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I'd like to know what all these "i anchor all the time" people do when anchoring at the bottom is not an option?? Now you are stuck with no experience belaying people dynamically and are used to being pulled off the ground.. into the wall sometimes.. sometimes having to dodge your climber
I am almost always outweighed by quite a bit.. i'm a very light person and choose my belay stance anticipating getting pulled up. Be aware of rocks or ledges in front of you that you could smack into. A friend of mine pulled her belayer into a sharp rock and needed stitches in his shin. Low on the route i'm pretty stingy with the slack to make sure they stay off the deck and try to stand close to the wall but out of the fall line.
You should be able to control most falls without being launched so far as to them decking.. giving hard non dynamic catches can leave the climber with ankle and knee injuries from swinging into the rock.
obviously there is a time and place.. an experienced partner and your own experience will teach you when you should anchor or not.
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jt512
Jun 21, 2007, 5:58 AM
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Tuwie wrote: Gloves - Some people swear by them while others wont even bother with them. It's mostly a matter of preference and which belay device you are using.
This is an example of an interesting fallacy that seems somewhat peculiar to this website. Its general form is: Some people hold one opinion, others the opposite; therefore, both sides are equally correct.
This reasoning is self-evidently wrong. As to the specific case, gloves for the belayer should be considered mandatory on multipitch climbs. For the reasons why, do a forum search for posts on the subject by rgold.
Jay
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curt
Jun 21, 2007, 6:23 AM
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rcparadise wrote: Thanks for the responses. I'm surprised, though, about your comment Saxfiend, seconded by Studclimber, about not wanting to be anchored. I'm actually not a beginner --
That's unfortunate, since the alternative is so much worse.
Curt
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jt512
Jun 21, 2007, 6:30 AM
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jakedatc wrote: Low on the route i'm pretty stingy with the slack to make sure they stay off the deck and try to stand close to the wall but out of the fall line.
What's this? Someone on rc.com who actually gets it?
Jay
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