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coastal_climber
Sep 19, 2007, 12:42 AM
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climb_eng wrote: ...but in Canada... the cops are messed up...
That would be a select few as I know quite a few and all are very professional, caring people.
>Cam
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clausti
Sep 19, 2007, 12:44 AM
Post #27 of 126
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yes, that is tragic. nobody disagrees with you on that.
a. meyer jackass didnt have a gun.
if i agree that after watching the other video, the first one again, and reading some more stuff that he deserved to be arrested, can i still be grossed out that they tazered him?
and yeah, notapplicable, ppl DO tend to be a bit biased about if they should be being arrested.
and yes, reno, extremes again, i prefer a world with police to a world without one. it STILL creeps me out how cops can get away with stuff. look up the recent fiascos in seattle with the accountability committee recommending sanction for officers' inappropriate actions and the chief of police going, "well, naw, i think you were right, even if the ethics comittee don't. Run along now."
what happens when you really do get a corrupt cop in there? rampant, harmful abuse.
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reno
Sep 19, 2007, 12:45 AM
Post #28 of 126
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slablizard wrote: Absolutely! We are human beings, good and bad ones. I try not to get into trouble, but I am glad someone is looking around the neighbors for bad guys, since there's plenty of them everywhere. I do have my doubts that ALL the cops are pure altruists...
Oh, certainly not ALL cops are 100% pure altruism. No argument there. Some do it for the bully-effect, as Clmb_Eng points out. Some do it for the security of a civil job. Some do it to meet chicks/men.
Most, I'd wager, do it for a mix of altruism, a sense of obligation/desire to serve, pay, security, etc. I don't think the bully-effect is as major a role as some do. Recruits/applicants go through some heavy-duty psychological testing, and such folks are typically weeded out.
In reply to: ...I mean you do it because you choose that career right? Or for pure altruism?
I don't want this to be a thread about me, but I'll answer your question:
I did choose this career, and made that choice for a variety of reasons. Altruism was one of about a dozen reasons, but not the biggest (honestly, the TV show "Emergency" was my biggest influence.)
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reno
Sep 19, 2007, 12:50 AM
Post #29 of 126
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clausti wrote: a. meyer jackass didnt have a gun.
That we know of....... after the fact.
In reply to: if i agree that after watching the other video, the first one again, and reading some more stuff that he deserved to be arrested, can i still be grossed out that they tazered him?
Sure.
In reply to: it STILL creeps me out how cops can get away with stuff. look up the recent fiascos in seattle with the accountability committee recommending sanction for officers' inappropriate actions and the chief of police going, "well, naw, i think you were right, even if the ethics comittee don't. Run along now."
Yep, creeps me out too. My whole point is that it's far more rare than common. Like the old adage about how the evening news never covers the plane that landed safely, you never see stories of cops doing the job correctly, with professionalism, respect for the people involved, or dignity towards all people.... even while the suspect is swinging punches, spitting, calling the cop "cracker" or "nigger" or "cunt" or other such.
That people maintain professionalism in the face of such adversity speaks highly of their character and honor.
THAT describes the vast majority of cops I know.
In reply to: what happens when you really do get a corrupt cop in there? rampant, harmful abuse....
... That gets exposed in cases like you mention above. 
(This post was edited by reno on Sep 19, 2007, 4:21 AM)
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themadmilkman
Sep 19, 2007, 1:05 AM
Post #30 of 126
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Just something to point out:
In certain states you CAN resist a false arrest. But I sure as hell wouldn't risk it, because if the reason for arrest turns out to be valid, you're basically screwed.
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microbarn
Sep 19, 2007, 3:44 AM
Post #31 of 126
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reno wrote: slablizard wrote: I don't understand, you treat major trauma so that the family doesn't have to? Don't a major trauma patient goes to an ER after an accident? Yeah, I didn't think I worded that very well. Let me clarify: Say John Q Public gets hurt in a car crash. Call it a broken leg. His wife is there. I come and do the medical care.... splint his leg, give him oxygen, start an IV, take him to the ER, and all that.... so SHE doesn't have to splint the leg, give oxygen, start an IV, etc. She lives with a measure of comfort knowing that there are folks like me who will come take care of him if he gets hurt. In the same way, we all live with a measure of comfort knowing that police officers are out there dealing with criminals so we don't have to. Or, perhaps more succinctly: Imagine living in a world without law enforcement officers. One where you had no protection against criminals other than yourself. Is that preferable to one with law enforcement officers, even if the rare few are "bad cops"? Personally, I prefer the latter.... a world with police, even if it means we have a few cases of rogue cops.
I don't mean to derail the argument. (ok, maybe a little.) However, this is about how my argument for the death penalty goes to. I know there will be a few mistakes, but most will be correct.
...and off this thread goes to the soapbox where I probably won't read it any more....
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overlord
Sep 19, 2007, 8:05 AM
Post #32 of 126
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http://www.netenfo.com/caught_on_tape.htm
more videos here.
anyway... the guy was pretty much wrong for resisting arrest. but thats after the fact.
what DID he do wrong? if you listen to the video, he just asked a question about voter fraud in the last presidential elections and stealing votes from a college election and being in a secret society, and then the cops moved in. he asked kerry a question and he was going to answer it. he didnt even seem too pushy to me, a little agitated yes (i guess he cares strongly about the topic), but definitely not a threat to anyone. only after the cops acted (for whatever reason) did he start flailing around etc.
if i was in hes place, i would have complied and then sued them for wrongful arrest.
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blondgecko
Moderator
Sep 19, 2007, 9:06 AM
Post #33 of 126
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Guy's a fucking idiot and is obviously acting.
I think this video shows things most clearly. The cameraperson is right next to him, and at around 1:40, when they grab him and he says "are you gonna arrest me?" the female cop says quite clearly, "We're not. We're not." They were simply trying to move a disruptive individual outside. Of course, he completely ignores her because that's not part of his act.
Now, at every seminar I've ever been to, there's a strict limit of one or two questions per person, since the time available is limited. I don't care who the speaker was - this guy was breaking the rules, hogging the mike and haranguing without waiting for or wanting answers, and the security reacted exactly as he wanted, by cutting him off and trying to escort him outside. He escalated, and escalated, and played up the situation for all it was worth, ignoring mutiple warnings.
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notapplicable
Sep 19, 2007, 11:03 AM
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The other two officers showed amazing restraint in not firing on the guy after he just shot another cop in the face.
I have been blatantly harassed my police before when I was doing absolutely nothing wrong. I have also been the recipient of unbelievably kind treatment and been given huge brakes when I was clearly violating the law.
All told I have alot of respect for the job if not the person behind the uniform and completely understand why they maybe sketched out alot of the time. They make a living dealing with shady people.
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notapplicable
Sep 19, 2007, 11:19 AM
Post #35 of 126
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If anyone has any questions about why the guy was tazed just watch this video that blond posted. Did you see how fast those cuffs went on after they zapped him afew times, compared to how much trouble they were having before. That is why he was tazed, to facilitated arrest.
Plus, Im sure the cops enjoyed listening to him squeal, I know I sure did.
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j_ung
Sep 19, 2007, 1:22 PM
Post #37 of 126
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I have a pretty hard time getting in anybody's corner on this one.
Kerry: Say something, you douchebag. I forget. Are you the giant douche or the turd sandwich?
Protester guy: You dumbass. If you're being arrested at a protest, go limp. Don't flail around like a monkey on crack. [whiny voice]Help me! Heeelp! No dood! Don't taze me dood![/whiny voice]
Police: A Tazer? With five of you on top of him already? In front of a crowd? Really?
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wjca
Sep 19, 2007, 1:32 PM
Post #38 of 126
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wideguy wrote: Clausti, you're just a little too close to your college rebel spirit I think. First, this kid had a prior history of pulling publicity stunts like this. Second, he reportedly had already had a shouting match with the cops when he broke away and took the mic by force, but was still allowed to speak. Then someone decides he's said enough and cuts his mic. (Now, you know as well as I do, there was an event organizer, speaking to a Stage manager or similar, who gave that order. The COLLEGE had decided this guy was done and ordered the campus cops in. Knowing political details, I wouldn't be at all surprised if that chain follows all the way up to a Kerry PR person.) The police then tapped him on the shoulder and told him he was done. He refused to leave the mic. Then two officer took him gently by both arms and tried to guide him away. At which point he pushed them away and tried to advance down the aisle, towards a US senator, in an obviously adversarial state. A THIRD officer stepped in to stop his advance. He kept pushing. Then the 4th, very large Black officer stepped in and started guiding him out of the room. All the while he is jumping up against them, screaming, swinging his arms, flaining around. He starts yelling "What are you arresting me for? " long before he has been restrained, cuffed or had anyone say he was under arrest. Then, when he approaches the shadowy area at the top he makes a strong push and advances several steps down the aisle. At which point the now five cops attempt to restrain him. He begins flailing and swinging. Then it gets too shadowy to see much. They get him to the ground, he is obviously still thrashing, screaming. Second video shows what appears to b an attempt to kick and officer holding his legs. That brings Two MORE officers. And he CONTINUES to resists. Then they employ the taser, probably in accordance with their training because, after all, a taser is considered a LESS violent option than an armbar with a nightstick to subdue someone. Stop trying to twist this into the simplistic "Speak in opposition and get Tasered" arguement taht is popping up all over. This guy went specifically to cause trouble, the crowd cheered when he was initially cut off, and everything else that happened to him was in response to attempted assault on a peace officer and resisting arrest. And like Reno said, if that had gone differently and he had turned around that third time and shot Kerry, all the bleeding hearts would be screaming that they should have removed the guy sooner. The cops, even campus cops, cannot assume any guy is a "harmless" nut. A threat is a threat and must be dealt with. The guy's lucky Kerry isn't still a presidential candidate or he'd have been face first on the aisle with 10 secret service boots on his throat about a full minute sooner.
What Chad said.
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camhead
Sep 19, 2007, 2:54 PM
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reno wrote: In the same way, we all live with a measure of comfort knowing that police officers are out there dealing with criminals so we don't have to. Or, perhaps more succinctly: Imagine living in a world without law enforcement officers. One where you had no protection against criminals other than yourself. Is that preferable to one with law enforcement officers, even if the rare few are "bad cops"? Personally, I prefer the latter.... a world with police, even if it means we have a few cases of rogue cops.
Actually, reno, I would have thought that your ever-present faith in free-market solutions would negate the existence of police forces. I mean, just give criminals economic incentive to not mug you! If they mug enough people, the powerful force of the collective consumers' avoidance of muggers will naturally weed them out, and they will realize that their trade is not economically sustainable. The capitalist economy is a powerful thing, you need to trust in it, and we cannot deal with big-government socialistic institutions such as police forces.
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nikegirl
Sep 19, 2007, 3:33 PM
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caughtinside wrote: clausti wrote: ok fine... he wasnt protesting "properly". but its still really disturbing... and also, that doesnt answer my question... can i police officer just arrest you for whatever reason? like they're having a bad day and you're wearing a short skirt that they know'll kick up if you resist, so they walk up, tell you you're under arrest, start reading you your rights, and you're like wtf??? i didnt do anything! can they then charge you with resisting arrest? you want to see some disturbing shit? check out the vid embedded in this news link http://www.thenewspaper.com/news/19/1961.asp this was last week. the cop threatened to make up a reason to take this kid to jail. Recorded. Police oversight definitely is a problem.
wow!
This is another reason why...
I don't feel safe when it comes to authority.
Hanger and I, and my son 11 went to a "dirt mt. bike park"
there was a sign behind a tree..."no parking"
didn't see it, obviously.
we had "Barney Fife"(looked just like him, snorted and was all authoritative),as our officer.
Robert, has umteenth tattoos, and I do as well...
Robert said, yes sir...no sir.
not a talking back, or such.(Robert is an ex-marine)Robert stood at ease.
This was and could have been a bad situation.
The park is a major boat/beach activity area.
I was VERY nervous! (old punk rocker, anxt memories flood)
It turned out fine.
but still.
freaked me out.
Robert was a good example, and a great lesson for my son.
cuz, well you never know.
This guy being tazed.
political, resistance...
he had an agenda, and this video is no different than more than one protester. It was a closed areana, and others are there to hear Kerry.
Not him.
HE is waste of other peoples time.
feh.
~T
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chadnsc
Sep 19, 2007, 6:22 PM
Post #41 of 126
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j_ung wrote: Police: A Tazer? With five of you on top of him already? In front of a crowd? Really?
As odd as this may sound multiple officers are used to restrain a violent person to try and keep said person from being injured. I know this may sound odd but please let me explain.
Officers are supposed to respond to violence with a certain degree of physical force. For example: at the low end of this response is placing their hand on the persons shoulder and escorting them away, at the other extreme end is the office drawing their weapon and shooting a violent suspect. I am not shure how many different levels of response there are for officers but I believe there are 6-8
When officers attempt to remove a person they will basically go through each of the degrees or levels of physical response. Obviously removing a person from a room should never get to the extreme level of deadly force unless people are in danger of being killed by the suspect. As the suspect become more violet, the officers have to respond with more force. When removing a person against their will the police use multiple officers so that each officer has to use less physical force on the suspect. This in theory is supposed to keep the suspect from receiving and injury, and keep the officers safer as well.
For example; an office could subdue and remove a disruptive individual very quickly by simply bashing them over the head with their night stick. Conversely several officers could each grab and arm or leg and carry the disruptive individual out of the room. It is important to note that the concept of passive resistance (aka going limp) as a form of protest came about because of how the police are supposed to respond to disruptive individual who won’t leave. You go limp, don’t resist, but also won’t move so the officers have to gently carry you out without hurting you. If the officers do you can sue the hell out them.
When a group of officers attempt to remove a suspect and that suspect is becoming more violent the officers have to make a choice, increase physical force to subdue the person and risk injuring the person or use the same amount of force and possibly get hurt themselves. This is where the taster comes in. By tasering the violent person the officer doesn’t have raise the level of physical response which could hurt the disruptive person. The taser basically knocks all the fight out of the violent person so the officer can safely remove them.
I have been tasered, it hurts like hell but the second the juice is shut off the pain stops, instantly. You do feel groggy and unwilling to resist for a about five minutes after though
(This post was edited by chadnsc on Sep 19, 2007, 6:38 PM)
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arrettinator
Sep 19, 2007, 6:29 PM
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I'll chime in.
It is too obvious from the link reno provided that the officers followed the book and were in the right.
Also, police officers are allowed to cuff someone even if they are not under arrest.
It is for their safety. In crim101 I learned that, and my best friend is a police officer.
I don't know if it is the case in every state, but in many states in order to be allowed to even carry a taser the officer must be tased him/herself.
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carabiner96
Sep 19, 2007, 6:44 PM
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Last year a friend of mine got tased at 2 am when he was caught drawing on a stop sign. The cop told him to freeze, so he dropped the marker and ran, only to be shot without warning with a tazer gun.
Mind you, this was campus police. I would rather deal with the city police anyday than the pathetic excuses for officers that make up the campus squad.
Not that it matters, since the UVM PD has jurisdiction over all of Burlington...thats right, you, not a college student at UVM, can get pulled over by a UVM cop. Hmm.
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microbarn
Sep 19, 2007, 7:34 PM
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funny how you want to avoid your campus cops, and I would seek them out. The cops on this campus try to keep everything internal. If you are a student, then you will get a slap on a wrist for almost anything. If you get involved with any other cops, then you usually go through the standard stuff that you expect anywhere.
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caughtinside
Sep 19, 2007, 7:36 PM
Post #45 of 126
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carabiner96 wrote: Last year a friend of mine got tased at 2 am when he was caught drawing on a stop sign. The cop told him to freeze, so he dropped the marker and ran, only to be shot without warning with a tazer gun.
Wait, your friend got caught in the midst of vandalism, ran from the cops and got tazed? POOR BABY! If every vandal started out getting tazed, we might be getting somewhere.
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fenix83
Moderator
Sep 19, 2007, 7:59 PM
Post #46 of 126
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clausti wrote: yeah, he was asking annoying questions, and cutting in line.. and he was being annoying... and he was *already being held down by a bunch of officers when they tazered him. unnecessary much?
I've got quite a few friends in LE and this subject was discussed to some length. He was on the ground with his hands under his body, making it impossible to properly restrain him. Flipping him over was inviting another scuffle, Tazing was the best way to get him to comply with the minimum amount of damage to him or the officers. He could perfectly well have been drawing a knife/gun/weapon from his waistband while on the floor.
clausti wrote: i hadnt heard this audio before today, and i thought it was the really disturbing part of the video. he relinquished the mic, and was leaving the building with his hands in the air when more cops came over and were like, we're gonna arrest you, at which point he broke away and ran, comencing screaming "what did i do? what are you arresting me?"
He caused a disturbance at a privately funded event, when police came over to escort him out he tried to flee... baaaaad idea. He then proceeded to actively resist arrest, almost catching one of the officers in the throat with an elbow, really baaaad idea. If you start struggling with police officers you run a very high risk of being subdued by force. If he felt his rights were being violated in some way he should have taken it up in court, resisting arrest repeatedly has a predictable end, especially when you have a US Senator and former presidential candidate in the room and you try to break off in his general direction (which happened to be the mic's general direction).
clausti wrote: they should fucking kicked him out, and had done with it, but nooo, they had to arrest him. and then, they had to taze him when five of them already had him pinned.
clausti wrote: he has the right to remain silent... but he can waive that right.
Do some research on him, he is a provocateur and very probably had already had run ins with local LEO.
Bio
CNN Story
-F
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wideguy
Sep 19, 2007, 8:22 PM
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Not to mention that the official report now confirms that he wasn't "tased" per se. The taser was used in a "Prod and move" mode, whereby the electrodes are not actually launched from the taser and only a fraction of the full voltage is applied. Something one LEO termed as being more like touching an electric garden fence. He said that had the full 50,000 volts been applied the student would no have been able to speak during the shocks and would have been fully incapacitated. The LEO's wouldn't have been able to be touching him either.
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veganclimber
Sep 19, 2007, 9:29 PM
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caughtinside
Sep 19, 2007, 9:32 PM
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veganclimber wrote: caughtinside wrote: carabiner96 wrote: Last year a friend of mine got tased at 2 am when he was caught drawing on a stop sign. The cop told him to freeze, so he dropped the marker and ran, only to be shot without warning with a tazer gun. Wait, your friend got caught in the midst of vandalism, ran from the cops and got tazed? POOR BABY! If every vandal started out getting tazed, we might be getting somewhere. You can't be serious. These things kill people. Sure they have their uses but tazing someone for vandalism is insane. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/.../201827_taser01.html
Well, I'd be all for caning, but the little shit might have gotten away! Send him to singapore! I fucking hate vandals.
zero accountability in this country.
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veganclimber
Sep 19, 2007, 9:37 PM
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