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hipclimber
Oct 1, 2007, 2:06 AM
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What placements on trad are good?
Easy to clean or hard to clean?
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kricir
Oct 1, 2007, 2:17 AM
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whatever holds your ass when you fall.
good placements could be hard or easy to clean.
bad placements could be hard or easy to clean.
In reality, there isn't really a correlation.
but easy to clean means a better life for your second, and faster climbing, as long as the placments don't walk and become hard to clean. Also keep in mind that some people suck at cleaning gear.
(This post was edited by kricir on Oct 1, 2007, 2:17 AM)
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vegastradguy
Oct 1, 2007, 2:38 AM
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they should be easy to clean. the only major exception to this is when a leader falls onto a passive piece (usually a stopper)- then that can be harder to clean.
other than that, though, it shouldn't take more than a second or two to pull a cam, and a few seconds to pull a stopper- any more than that, and on a multi-pitch that starts adding up fast. if you need to use your nut tool on every nut....thats alot of time over the course of 6 or 7 pitches.
i cant even remember the last time i used my nut tool to clean a stopper while seconding.
(This post was edited by vegastradguy on Oct 1, 2007, 2:40 AM)
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tomperelli
Oct 1, 2007, 2:52 AM
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If your rope is not going in a straight line when you fall it will pull at odd angles on your gear. Without tight placements or long runners some of your gear will zip (from the bottom up).Also, far too many people use sport draws on gear which increases the risk of this! I prefer longer runners and setting my gear with a moderate tug.
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kane_schutzman
Oct 1, 2007, 2:55 AM
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I always set nuts with a quick flick of the wrist. I guess you could say. Usually, 90% of the time they come up with the same motion upward.
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chossmonkey
Oct 1, 2007, 11:56 AM
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I agree that how easy or hard to clean doesn't have much relation to how good a piece really is. Ideally a good piece will have to break a lot of rock to fail, stay put when it is in place, and come out easily when your partner cleans it. Just because a piece is stuck doesn't mean it is good.
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slimper
Oct 3, 2007, 12:18 AM
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I think people new to placing gear tend to set their nuts excessively hard. I'm in the set lightly and use long runners crowd. It's worked for me.
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climbingaggie03
Oct 3, 2007, 12:30 AM
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I agree that setting lightly and using long runners will probably keep your piece there and make it easier to clean, but usually I don't want to use a full length runner cause it will lengthen my fall causing me to hit a ledge/tree/deck, so I have to set them harder so that they don't get pulled out. I don't weight them, just a good solid tug or two, and off I go.
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vegastradguy
Oct 3, 2007, 2:05 AM
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climbingaggie03 wrote: I agree that setting lightly and using long runners will probably keep your piece there and make it easier to clean, but usually I don't want to use a full length runner cause it will lengthen my fall causing me to hit a ledge/tree/deck, so I have to set them harder so that they don't get pulled out. I don't weight them, just a good solid tug or two, and off I go.
this is a tradeoff that usually comes up in the lower grades. however, keep in mind that the difference between a trad draw tripled and fully extended is about 16"- so, the fall extension isnt that big.
also keep in mind that using a tripled runner rather than a quickdraw is much less likely to pull a stopper out because out how floppy a tripled draw is compared to a normal quickdraw.
still, i never did place nuts with a solid tug or two unless i was freaked out or needed that piece to hold or i would die and i thought there was a remote possibility of it popping out.
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tomperelli
Oct 3, 2007, 4:17 AM
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If someone hands me some of the short and stiff quickdraws my response as a leader is to weld the gear. If on the other hand I have some 12" or if needed 24" flexible runners then my placements are easy to clean. Of coarse if the placements are shallow and not multidirectional then I will set them with authority.
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paintrain
Oct 3, 2007, 4:39 AM
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I set them pretty good. Long runner or not. I want that thing to stay were I put it. If it moves or shifts, how do I know it is worth a damn. Traverse, hook the runner with your foot, have your belayer move to their pack to get a snack and it can move or pop.
I can't remember the last time I lost a stopper. 7 dollars lost or peace of mind, it is a choice.
Nut tools were invented for just this reason.
pt
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vegastradguy
Oct 3, 2007, 5:13 AM
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paintrain wrote: I set them pretty good. Long runner or not. I want that thing to stay were I put it. If it moves or shifts, how do I know it is worth a damn. Traverse, hook the runner with your foot, have your belayer move to their pack to get a snack and it can move or pop.
if you place your stoppers correctly, they not only stay put, but are also removable without the use of a nut tool.
In reply to: I can't remember the last time I lost a stopper. 7 dollars lost or peace of mind, it is a choice. Nut tools were invented for just this reason.
fair enough.
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pwscottiv
Oct 3, 2007, 5:26 AM
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slimper wrote: I think people new to placing gear tend to set their nuts excessively hard. I'm in the set lightly and use long runners crowd. It's worked for me.
From what I've found, sometimes even with long runners I'll see pieces come out... Which REALLY sucks if you'll be able to hit the ground or something else because of it... After having many pieces get wiggled out (over 22 years of climbing) I set my chocks pretty hard if there's any doubt in my mind as to whether they'll stay till I get to the end of the pitch.
I carry three "sets" of chocks organized by size... When I go to place a piece I pull the whole set off, and once I get the one that fits correctly, I hold on the rest of the chocks and yank hard... Sometimes many times depending on the stability of the placement... My life is more valuable than a chock... If my second can't get it out because I yanked it too hard (which has only happened twice for me), then who cares... Someone will eventually want it enough to get it out.
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climbingaggie03
Oct 3, 2007, 5:06 PM
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pwscottiv wrote: ...I carry three "sets" of chocks organized by size... When I go to place a piece I pull the whole set off, and once I get the one that fits correctly, I hold on the rest of the chocks and yank hard....
not to highjack the thread, but I used to set my nuts like this, but then thought that maybe it's not the best to be yanking on all my nuts like this, maybe I'm being silly cause they are burly pieces of gear without moving parts, but I worry I might mess up the swages or something, so now i place the nut, clip my draw/runner and then set. Am I being paranoid, or does anybody else do this?
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vegastradguy
Oct 3, 2007, 5:55 PM
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climbingaggie03 wrote: pwscottiv wrote: ...I carry three "sets" of chocks organized by size... When I go to place a piece I pull the whole set off, and once I get the one that fits correctly, I hold on the rest of the chocks and yank hard.... not to highjack the thread, but I used to set my nuts like this, but then thought that maybe it's not the best to be yanking on all my nuts like this, maybe I'm being silly cause they are burly pieces of gear without moving parts, but I worry I might mess up the swages or something, so now i place the nut, clip my draw/runner and then set. Am I being paranoid, or does anybody else do this?
if it was possible to mess up the swages by doing this, the stopper wouldnt hold a fall in the first place. you're being paranoid.
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cracklover
Oct 3, 2007, 6:10 PM
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kricir wrote: whatever holds your ass when you fall. good placements could be hard or easy to clean. bad placements could be hard or easy to clean. In reality, there isn't really a correlation. but easy to clean means a better life for your second, and faster climbing, as long as the placments don't walk and become hard to clean. Also keep in mind that some people suck at cleaning gear.
Perfect answer!!!
vegastradguy wrote: i cant even remember the last time i used my nut tool to clean a stopper while seconding.
You ever climb in zion? Just standing on a nut (no bounce-test at all) in some of the cracks will weld it *tight*. Nut tool alone = not enough to clean it in some cases. Need a rock or big hex to bang on it with.
GO
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desertdude420
Oct 3, 2007, 6:12 PM
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Well placed (passive) pro is always easier to clean than bad placements in my experience. The more surface area is touching the rock, the less likely the nut will jam and become hard to clean.
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pt
Oct 3, 2007, 7:24 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: they should be easy to clean. the only major exception to this is when a leader falls onto a passive piece (usually a stopper)- then that can be harder to clean. other than that, though, it shouldn't take more than a second or two to pull a cam, and a few seconds to pull a stopper- any more than that, and on a multi-pitch that starts adding up fast. if you need to use your nut tool on every nut....thats alot of time over the course of 6 or 7 pitches. i cant even remember the last time i used my nut tool to clean a stopper while seconding. In reply to: I don't think this is a valid statement. Many small nuts or rps may need to be set pretty hard to be effective. I led Mai Tai on Saturday and I went ahead and set a few of the smaller nuts. No big deal, my second just knocked them out with a nut tool. It only takes a few seconds if you know what your'e doing. And I can certainly clean most nuts by yanking on the cable but a little tap with a nut tool is easier on the wire and doesn't ruin the stopper.
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krusher4
Oct 3, 2007, 7:42 PM
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When I'm strung out I set gear really hard. I think the leader set gear as hard as they want to and the second is not allow to bitch.
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jmeizis
Oct 3, 2007, 8:58 PM
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I use to set all my gear with a few hard tugs, mostly because that's how I was taught. It wasn't till recently that me and my partner were trying to figure out how to move faster on multipitch routes. One of the ways we decided was to make our gear easier to clean. It really adds up when it takes the second more than two seconds to clean the gear. Something I noticed is that my placements have improved. I see better places to fiddle in my nuts and when they are in, they are in.
The only time I set passive pro is if I'm run out and the placement is not in an ideal spot and I'm worried about it coming out.
I use plenty of quickdraws on passive placements, it's more of a rope drag issue than worrying about gear falling out. Obviously it depends on the rock and the placements and sometimes I'll get a bad placement stuck and just back it up while a good placement will be hard to remove. It can make it especially difficult if the placement was creative and the second doesn't see how it went in.
My though is that it should usually be easy.
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the_climber
Oct 3, 2007, 9:25 PM
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A good placement is a good placement. Period.
However, the same can be said of a bad placement.
With regard to setting nuts, sometimes it needs to be done and sometimes not. The reall issue comes with excessively setting nuts, especailly when it is not needed. In good rock with ideal placements for example. If your partner is guilty of this, fear not... there is a cure. Climb a route (preferably a single pitch route) which takes a variety of sizes of wired chocks. Use his gear and set them to the point of nearly bounce testing them. After he finally gets all of him gear back he will understand why not to excesively set passive gear and you will save hours on long climbs.
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drjghl
Oct 4, 2007, 1:48 AM
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I agree with vegastradguy. All gear should be easy to remove. As for nuts. Let me add that having to strike one a couple of times with a nut tool does not mean it is hard to remove. I always pull out my cleaner and strike the nut to loosen it. Just a reflex. And I always give a few tugs to set my nuts. : ) As for cams that might be hard to remove, I will try to place, remove, and replace them to make sure my follower can remove them. And when the second has trouble taking out a piece (whether or not it's my fault or not) I'll usually apologize to them. There are few things that piss me off more than having to hang while using both my hands to remove a poorly placed piece when better gear options are there.
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vegastradguy
Oct 4, 2007, 6:09 AM
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cracklover wrote: vegastradguy wrote: i cant even remember the last time i used my nut tool to clean a stopper while seconding. You ever climb in zion? Just standing on a nut (no bounce-test at all) in some of the cracks will weld it *tight*. Nut tool alone = not enough to clean it in some cases. Need a rock or big hex to bang on it with.
zion = aid. i bring a hammer on aid routes in zion for cleaning nuts quickly. one tap of the hammer on the nut tool in zion removes about 99% of all stuck stoppers! another handy tool is the pika nut tool with a built in hammer- much lighter than a wall hammer and just as effective.
we're talking about free climbing here.
of course there are always exceptions to the rule- experienced climbers know those exceptions well and climb accordingly.
generally speaking, though, regular stoppers should not need a nut tool to remove them, nor should they need to be yanked on to remove. lifting, maybe a little wiggle should be all that is needed. rp's are an exception (and on Mai Tai, a big one) to this rule- but then, how many beginners are placing rp's?
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