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shurafa
Sep 27, 2007, 8:08 PM
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This is a perennial problem I have faced in every single gym I have ever climbed in. New climbers are attracted to bouldering because you don't have to worry about buying/renting extra gear. There is also less of a learning curve as you don't have to learn how to belay. However unless they are extremely athletic they get on the wall and are immediately shut down. Add to this the fact that there are usually only a handful of V0's and you end up with a lot of discouraged climbers. This is especially true of new female climbers as they often do not have the upper body strength to power through these moves. Gym owners need to get on top of this as they are losing potential revenue.
Like all climbing grades bouldering grades are subjective and vary from region to region. The traditional definition of a V0 is that is approximately equivalent to a 5.10. Historically a 5.10 was supposed to be the top of the scale consisting of an almost completely sheer surface. As technology and climbing technique evolved it was soon deemed that the scale had to be extended as people were sending routes clearly more difficult than the current 5.10 grade maximum. Though technology has improved it still seems ludicrous that what was once considered and impossibly difficult climb is now the basis for the bottom of the rating scale. Imagine if 5.10 was the bottom of the scale for top roping! It just is not adequate. Therefore it is clear that the V scale should be extended below the current V0 grade. The question is how to best go about doing this.
There are several approaches that can be used. The most common I have seen is to assign - to problems considered below V0-. This is problematic as it is relatively vague. For example compare it to a top rope grade of 5.10- here you can clearly see that there is a BIG difference between 5.9 and 5.5 that is not accurately illustrated by the grade. Therefore this method is inadequate. Alternately you can assign negative grades. V-1=5.9, V-2=5.8, V-3=5.7 ect. Psychologically this is less than ideal as people do not want to climb negative numbers. That is just human nature. Another option is to use a decimal point V.9=5.9, V.8=5.8 V.7=5.7 ect. One of the major advantages of this system is how easy it is to equate top rop rating with the bouldering scale. This is great for new climbers who are often confused by the different numerical scales. Finally the method I prefer is one that is already widely used. Add two zeros to all existing climbing grades. This is what is done when setting for climbing comps. For example a V3 in a comp is worth 300 points. There is a reason that most comps are set with this scale. There are a multitude of advantages to this system. Fist it is compatible with the existing climbing scale as all you have to do is add two zeros to all existing grades above V0. Secondly it is more flexible. How many times have you climbed a route that is definitely harder the grade assigned yet not so hard that it should be bumped up to the next grade. Giving a grade of 350 lets climbers know that it is actually somewhere in-between a V3 and a V4. With this system the V0 would be eliminated. A V1/5.10 would = 100 points. A 5.9 would be 90 points a 5.8 would be 80 points ect. This is not perfect as the scale is not linear however it is the only way to accommodate the existing structure without completely revamping the grading format.
Implementing these changes to the existing grading system would translate into more people climbing! With access to climbing grades at there skill level largest barrier for new climbers will be removed. Currently most people who boulder also top rope. However there is a large percentage of the population that climbs below 5.10 and therefore does not boulder by definition.
It will also have the effect of clarifying the difficulty level. Currently V0's vary in difficulty so widely that they are not a reliable measure of difficulty. This is true even within a given gym I have to climb every single V0 to make sure my friends will not get shut down on it. (compare this to a 5.5 where you know that just about anyone will be able to send it) I have also found that this has artificially lowered the climbing level of the V1-V2 climbs in most gyms do to inflationary grading pressures. This is a VERY important point with serious implications.
Another interesting effect that I predict is along with the increased popularity. New gyms when built will be built to accommodate this increase in bouldering popularity. Currently most gyms have a small section dedicated to bouldering. As not everyone boulders. It seems as though most gyms dedicate about 20-40% of their space to bouldering. In the future this will likely increase dramatically. I also envision climbing walls evolving to accommodate the crossover appeal. With lead sections build directly into bouldering areas to allow for both bouldering and lead climbing.
Its an exciting time to be a climber. The technology is changing every day. New Gyms are opening all the time!
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johnathon78
Sep 28, 2007, 12:21 AM
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That was a Looooooooong, boring post.
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sinrtb
Sep 28, 2007, 12:36 AM
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I always thought before V0 there was V0- and VB VB+ and VB-. You don't need that much separation between the easiest of boulder problems and V1. Its not like roped-climbing where you have to deal with exposure and the like. With a boulder problem anything too easy and it can be stepped over or walked to the top.
If you have little or no beginner routes at your gym you need to talk to the route setters.
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shurafa
Sep 28, 2007, 8:25 AM
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sinrtb wrote: I always thought before V0 there was V0- and VB VB+ and VB-. You don't need that much separation between the easiest of boulder problems and V1. Its not like roped-climbing where you have to deal with exposure and the like. With a boulder problem anything too easy and it can be stepped over or walked to the top. If you have little or no beginner routes at your gym you need to talk to the route setters.
Given that V0= anything from 5.5-5.10 and that I have climbed in every gym in the Metro area. I have yet to climb in any gym where there comparable number of V0 and 5.5-5.10 routes. In most gyms the 5.5-5.10 routes make up a large portion of the routes yet there are only a handful of V0 problems. Imagine if there were zero 5.5-5.9 problems in a gym. I have been to several gyms that do not have any V0- problems.
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gqsmooth
Sep 28, 2007, 4:13 PM
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shurafa wrote: This is a perennial problem I have faced in every single gym I have ever climbed in.
If you are climbing harder than V0 then how is it your problem, unless you have financial interest the gym owners not taking advantage of that extra revenue.
shurafa wrote: New climbers are attracted to bouldering because [there is] less of a learning curve...unless they are extremely athletic they.... are immediately shut down.
This is just as much a learning curve in bouldering as trad or sport or aid or ice. It was never about being more athletic in order to climb harder, it was about learning technique. More technique = harder climbs. There is a huge learning curve for technique in bouldering; tha V0 you are talking about (by your definition), has all the technicality of a whole 5.10 route compressed into a problem.
shurafa wrote: This is especially true of new female climbers as they often do not have the upper body strength to power through these moves.
The one thing that every climber (sport/trad/boudlering) told me was that it was never about upper body strength. Your arms are such a minor part of any climbing you do. The majority of world class climbers are there because of footwork and technique.
shurafa wrote: the V scale should be extended below the current V0 grade. The question is how to best go about doing this.
If you've been to alot of gyms you should see, like everyone that responded mentioned, that alot of gyms do grade below V0. Using VB; VE, E1+/-, and their variations.
shurafa wrote: Implementing these changes to the existing grading system would translate into more people climbing!
Why change what works? I'm sure there have been loads of people that wanted to change standards. Why doesn't the US go to Metric? It makes more sense than the current system. And why do you want more people to climb? More people, to me, just means more issues with access, accidents, higher rates for gyms because those gym owners see an opportunity for increased revenue (as demand increases supply decreases and prices rise).
shurafa wrote: However there is a large percentage of the population that climbs below 5.10 and therefore does not boulder by definition.
Be definition? So if you want to start grading below V0 aren't you "by definition" excluding these people from bouldering? I usually boulder V3 average but cant get past 5.10, does that "by definition" mean I only boulder V0?
shurafa wrote: Currently V0's vary in difficulty so widely that they are not a reliable measure of difficulty. This is true even within a given gym I have to climb every single V0 to make sure my friends will not get shut down on it.
Sounds like you just want to show them that you can do it, therefore they should? Make sure they don't get shut down. That's BS. Why not let them learn and grow on their own before you tell them they can't do it because you say it's too difficult.
If you are so hard up for new gyms and the sport to get huge, do your part by climbing and bringing people to the sport to decide for themselves what they want to take away. Don't shove your notions of what's to hard for them down their throats, in that you are taking away from climbing what I believe every climber aims to get out of the sport, a sense of self-accomplishment.
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gqsmooth
Sep 28, 2007, 4:35 PM
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Because there is always some guy coming into a situation that thinks he can improve upon the system that everyone agrees with. Some weird narcissistic attitude that makes them believe that upon reading this everyone will exclaim: OMFG! Why didn't I think of this! Where was this guy when John Gill, and John Sherman were trying to think of an effective grading system that would bridge/parallel the roped system!!!!!!
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BornGhost
Sep 28, 2007, 5:23 PM
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The gym that I am a member of has, as of right now, 3 V0 routes and 2 V0+ routes. From there, you have roughly 5 V1 routes to work on. This might seem sufficient, but i've never really seen it as such. The lower graded routes are, to my knowledge, supposed to help you with technique. Most of these routes don't offer much in the way of variations of technique, though there are a couple that will challenge you to do something you thought impossible at one time.
Do I think we need to change the difficulty of the grades? No. A V0 indoors should be easy enough for someone to climb that has very, very little experience, and most of them are.
Do I think that the quantity and quality of V0s should be given more attention? Yes. Yeah, more climbers who aren't serious about the sport will probably come and clog the routes, but they will weed themselves out when they realize it isn't as easy as it looks.
That's my two cents on it, anyway.
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cracklover
Sep 28, 2007, 8:44 PM
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If your friends just want to boulder, and one gym has more easy boulder problems than the other, just take them to the one with more easy boulder problems.
Some gyms cater to hard climbers, some to kiddie birthday parties, and some to the whole range. Go to the place that's appropriate for your needs. This has nothing to do with rating systems.
And if you need to know how hard a V0- is, get on it and try it! If it's too hard, try another. If the gym has a lot of very easy boulder problems all rated V0-, ask them to put 5.X grades on them.
GO
(This post was edited by cracklover on Sep 28, 2007, 8:45 PM)
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Carnage
Oct 1, 2007, 4:48 PM
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the begginers at my gym usually just go offroute. doesnt mean they arent trying hard stuff, they are doing stuff thats fun and at their level. encourage people to make up their own lines until they have gotten the hang of it enough to start trying the v0's
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dingus
Oct 1, 2007, 4:59 PM
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2 comments:
1. The notion that true bouldering starts at v0 is laughable and sad all at once.
2. I've only been to a few gyms but every one I've been in had so many sub v0 bouldering problems they were virtually uncountable.
The notion that a bouldering problem has to be set, tagged and bagged is what seems most limiting to me. Tell the noobs to forget about colored tape and ratings and idiotic contrived problems
AND JUST CLIMB. Use whatever works. Make up your own problems.
Cheers
DMT
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mcernie
Oct 1, 2007, 5:24 PM
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the gym could also go to the format used during comps: recreational, intermediate, advanced, and open. gets rid of true grades, and people might not be as intimidated to jump on problems simply due to the grade that is attached. sure there are potential issues with doing this, but no matter what, people are always going to find a reason to bitch, regardless of what 'grading system' is in place.
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hipclimber
Oct 1, 2007, 6:43 PM
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The issue that there are not many easy bouldering problems is because no one really knows how to rate them.
Route setters:
(1) Tend to be good climbers and as such it is hard to tell the differances between the lower grades.
(2) Are motivated to set harder routes because they are the ones that have interesting moves. It is the harder problems that are interesting, fun and motivational for them.
Solution to the problem!!!:
Go to the gym, ask for some tape and start playing add-on till you have taped an easy route.
As long as you keep setting routes, people will become inspired and things will catch on. Who knows how far your help can go with this sport.
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wiki
Oct 4, 2007, 2:08 AM
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hipclimber wrote: The issue that there are not many easy bouldering problems is because no one really knows how to rate them. Route setters: (1) Tend to be good climbers and as such it is hard to tell the differances between the lower grades. (2) Are motivated to set harder routes because they are the ones that have interesting moves. It is the harder problems that are interesting, fun and motivational for them.
Well said!
Here we do have grades below V0 - even outside. They are VE and VM.
There aren't many people who can't climb VE and it IS possible to make them fun and different.
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