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N_Oo_B
Oct 3, 2007, 2:28 AM
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After the fact, you look over and see another climbing party just did something quite unsafe...but intentionally did it. Do you bother saying anything?
The other day I was at a crag and looked over at a couple on a belay ledge about 15feet up (25-30 down to where the trees would stop a fall). She wasn't anchored at all and I watched him clip his first bolt at 30feet into the climb (passing the first 4 bolts). I don't care how you like to lead, I was thinkinging it was unsafe for the belayer. I certainly wouldn't want to be ripped off a ledge and fall/slide 20 feet into a brush pile/tree's.
Yet they had already clipped and I felt like it wouldn't have meant a thing to say anything.
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EPiCJAMES
Oct 3, 2007, 2:34 AM
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N_Oo_B wrote: After the fact, you look over and see another climbing party just did something quite unsafe...but intentionally did it. Do you bother saying anything? The other day I was at a crag and looked over at a couple on a belay ledge about 15feet up (25-30 down to where the trees would stop a fall). She wasn't anchored at all and I watched him clip his first bolt at 30feet into the climb (passing the first 4 bolts). I don't care how you like to lead, I was thinkinging it was unsafe for the belayer. I certainly wouldn't want to be ripped off a ledge and fall/slide 20 feet into a brush pile/tree's. Yet they had already clipped and I felt like it wouldn't have meant a thing to say anything.
did he look like he was having trouble with the climb? i'm sure he has it wired, and thats why they skipped a couple.
in your situation, i would of left it alone. if that's how they wanna climb, more power to em. but if their unsafe behavior could hinder me, i'd let them know whats up.
if they are doing something unsafe, and it isn't obvious that they don't know what they'er doing, you got every right to let them know. don't attack them, just let them know what you observed and that's that.
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N_Oo_B
Oct 3, 2007, 3:02 AM
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ya I just figured for his belay's safety he shoulda clipped the first one or somethin...after that run it out 100 feet for all i care
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coastal_climber
Oct 3, 2007, 3:29 AM
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EPiCJAMES wrote: N_Oo_B wrote: After the fact, you look over and see another climbing party just did something quite unsafe...but intentionally did it. Do you bother saying anything? The other day I was at a crag and looked over at a couple on a belay ledge about 15feet up (25-30 down to where the trees would stop a fall). She wasn't anchored at all and I watched him clip his first bolt at 30feet into the climb (passing the first 4 bolts). I don't care how you like to lead, I was thinkinging it was unsafe for the belayer. I certainly wouldn't want to be ripped off a ledge and fall/slide 20 feet into a brush pile/tree's. Yet they had already clipped and I felt like it wouldn't have meant a thing to say anything. did he look like he was having trouble with the climb? i'm sure he has it wired, and thats why they skipped a couple. in your situation, i would of left it alone. if that's how they wanna climb, more power to em. but if their unsafe behavior could hinder me, i'd let them know whats up. if they are doing something unsafe, and it isn't obvious that they don't know what they'er doing, you got every right to let them know. don't attack them, just let them know what you observed and that's that.
If they get hurt and you have to help them, that may put you in a an unsafe position, which would hinder you.
>Cam
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stymingersfink
Oct 3, 2007, 4:03 AM
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N_Oo_B wrote: After the fact, you look over and see another climbing party just did something quite unsafe...but intentionally did it. Do you bother saying anything? The other day I was at a crag and looked over at a couple on a belay ledge about 15feet up (25-30 down to where the trees would stop a fall). She wasn't anchored at all and I watched him clip his first bolt at 30feet into the climb (passing the first 4 bolts). I don't care how you like to lead, I was thinking it was unsafe for the belayer. I certainly wouldn't want to be ripped off a ledge and fall/slide 20 feet into a brush pile/tree's. Yet they had already clipped and I felt like it wouldn't have meant a thing to say anything.
When soloing, I regularly skip all the bolts. If someone were to say something while I were doing so, I'd have to invite that someone to STFU & MYOB.
OTOH, I've witnessed a few church-group outings at the crag that require a few things to be said, especially if it's obvious that a noob is being unknowingly subjected to imminent danger. Casual mention to the belayer of an observed unsafe practice (serious enough to cause physical harm when not mitigated), escalates to comments directed at the noob being TR'd into dangers way. Usually by the third comment, the noob decides that the climb is too hard for them and it's time to come down, at which point I will explain to them what my concerns were and why (as a complete and total stranger) I was willing to voice them as loudly as I was.
It's a fine line between being concerned for another's safety and just being an obnoxious boor.
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majid_sabet
Oct 3, 2007, 4:53 AM
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Here is my climbing mentor asking me NOT to belay him via ANY belay device while he is leading a 5.11C crack with no protection and as you can see, he is way out there .
What should I say or do ?
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Oct 3, 2007, 5:49 PM)
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LostinMaine
Oct 3, 2007, 12:21 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: Here is my climbing mentor asking me NOT to belay him via ANY belay device while he is leading a 5.11C crack with no protection and as you can see, he is way out there . What should I say or do ?
drop the rope and get a sammich.
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N_Oo_B
Oct 3, 2007, 1:35 PM
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anchor yourself and not give a damn about him?
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j_ung
Oct 3, 2007, 1:36 PM
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Wait, are you saying that the leader was climbing unprotected while the belayer was on belay -- and sitting on a high ledge? Should we call that a XX rated route? Climber falls = team dies? 
That sounds a lot more like ignorant to me than it does bold.
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markc
Oct 3, 2007, 1:49 PM
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I have mixed feelings about this one. As has been said, I feel much more pressure to say something to obviously inexperienced climbers. They may be taking risks they're entirely unaware of, or getting into bad habits that could bite them on the ass later.
With some experience, many of us start taking calculated risks when the deck is heavily stacked in our favor. In this case, the risk to the belayer would have been easy to eliminate. If the opportunity presented itself, I might have said, "It looks like you really have that climb wired. It'd be a bitch for your belayer if you happened to blow it before that first clip." It would get your opinion across without being overly heavy-handed. I'd be more tempted to say something if the experience levels of the partners was obviously great.
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c4c
Oct 3, 2007, 2:34 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: Here is my climbing mentor asking me NOT to belay him via ANY belay device while he is leading a 5.11C crack with no protection and as you can see, he is way out there . What should I say or do ? [URL=http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?img=/9/10/2/f_noprom_5af2dca.jpg&srv=img39][IMG]http://img39.picoodle.com/img/img39/9/10/2/f_noprom_5af2dca.jpg[/IMG]
Yank the rope! That will teach him!
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granite_grrl
Oct 3, 2007, 2:50 PM
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This is a tricky one. Yes, say something if they don't kniow what they're doing, but there could be something about the situation that you're not aware of. I'd try the conversation approch. Ask them about the climb and see if the belayer is even aware of the danger.
On the other hand I've started to become jaded about trying to help my fellow climber. I've gotten too much flack from people who think they know what they're doing. Why are there so many climbers who don't want to hear what you have to say?
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jgloporto
Oct 3, 2007, 2:58 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: This is a tricky one. Yes, say something if they don't kniow what they're doing, but there could be something about the situation that you're not aware of. I'd try the conversation approch. Ask them about the climb and see if the belayer is even aware of the danger. On the other hand I've started to become jaded about trying to help my fellow climber. I've gotten too much flack from people who think they know what they're doing. Why are there so many climbers who don't want to hear what you have to say?
Why are there so many people who don't want to hear what you have to say.
I vote that these were sport climbers who were bored of their wankery and wanted the thrill and experience of sketchy x rated trad, clipping one out every five bolts and skipping belay anchors all together. Good on them!
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markc
Oct 3, 2007, 3:05 PM
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granite_grrl wrote: On the other hand I've started to become jaded about trying to help my fellow climber. I've gotten too much flack from people who think they know what they're doing. Why are there so many climbers who don't want to hear what you have to say?
I've run into the same problem with groups of new climbers. No one wants to think they're unsafe, or that they're putting their friends in danger. I think that fear causes a knee-jerk defensive response. I've tried to find ways around it, but it's tricky.
I think it's even worse when it's a younger guy that has just started taking out his inexperienced friends. He's probably been practicing bad habits, and his lack of consequences builds up a false confidence. Any attempt at correction is seen as a personal attack.
As you said, I try to strike up conversation. I might say I haven't bumped into them before, ask where they're from, etc. That might lead to an opportunity to see how long they've been climbing. Then I can try to point out how I might alter their system to add strength or redundancy.
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cracklover
Oct 3, 2007, 4:58 PM
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Here's what I usually do: I ask if the person is aware of such and such situation. If they are, and that's what they're trying to do - fine, none of my business. But usually this is enough to at least get them to think about it.
As for timing, if it's a situation that can be helped by immediate intervention, and I don't think I'll be causing any problems, I'll ask immediately. Otherwise I'll wait until after everyone's down safely.
And when to speak up versus hold your peace is a judgment call. Here's an example where speaking up was *not* helpful:
I was leading a climb in Acadia a few months ago. It had only pretty good protection, and was hard for me. In the middle of the climb, a guy I know (who's a brand new trad leader) walks up and says
"hey, be careful, Matt decked on that climb today." Holy hell, I'm thinking - is the gear *that* bad? Or the holds break? What? So I asked him:
"Damn - what happened!?"
"Oh, I dunno, he just fell, something went wrong, and he decked. So be careful."
Well that kind of bad juju I do *not* need! I later found out that Matt had gone off route (the way that looks most obvious is wrong - I almost went that way myself) and when he fell, he took a good long fall and hit a ledge butt first (he didn't actually deck, and he walked away, and in fact did other climbs later that day).
And here's an example of when it was helpful: Two climbers, one has anchored in at the top of a climb and is trying to yell down instructions to the second about how to tie in. She's forgotten, and is getting flustered. I step in and offer to help, which is gratefully appreciated by all.
GO
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majid_sabet
Oct 3, 2007, 5:34 PM
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My mentor (s) feel that they can climb better without any type of attachaments so they asked me not to belay them. They carry that for me ( the pu**y n00b) to set a top rope.
What I am trying to say is that a unsafe behavior to some may be very safe to another person and sometimes you just have to accept it.
yes I know what if............ but that is how its going to be.
ps. The person who is leading that pitch is among the few best climbers in the world and I am honored to learn so much from them.
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chadnsc
Oct 3, 2007, 6:01 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: What I am trying to say is that a unsafe behavior to some may be very safe to another person and sometimes you just have to accept it.
Am I the only one who finds this piece of wisdom hypocritical when coming from Majid?
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EPiCJAMES
Oct 3, 2007, 6:07 PM
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coastal_climber wrote: EPiCJAMES wrote: N_Oo_B wrote: After the fact, you look over and see another climbing party just did something quite unsafe...but intentionally did it. Do you bother saying anything? The other day I was at a crag and looked over at a couple on a belay ledge about 15feet up (25-30 down to where the trees would stop a fall). She wasn't anchored at all and I watched him clip his first bolt at 30feet into the climb (passing the first 4 bolts). I don't care how you like to lead, I was thinkinging it was unsafe for the belayer. I certainly wouldn't want to be ripped off a ledge and fall/slide 20 feet into a brush pile/tree's. Yet they had already clipped and I felt like it wouldn't have meant a thing to say anything. did he look like he was having trouble with the climb? i'm sure he has it wired, and thats why they skipped a couple. in your situation, i would of left it alone. if that's how they wanna climb, more power to em. but if their unsafe behavior could hinder me, i'd let them know whats up. if they are doing something unsafe, and it isn't obvious that they don't know what they'er doing, you got every right to let them know. don't attack them, just let them know what you observed and that's that. If they get hurt and you have to help them, that may put you in a an unsafe position, which would hinder you. >Cam
i knew someone was going to say this. let me re-phrase, if their unsafe behavior was going to cause me injury, i'd say something.
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olderic
Oct 3, 2007, 6:15 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: My mentor (s) feel that they can climb better without any type of attachaments so they asked me not to belay them. They carry that for me ( the pu**y n00b) to set a top rope. What I am trying to say is that a unsafe behavior to some may be very safe to another person and sometimes you just have to accept it. yes I know what if............ but that is how its going to be. ps. The person who is leading that pitch is among the few best climbers in the world and I am honored to learn so much from them.
was he wearing a helmet? 
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majid_sabet
Oct 3, 2007, 6:41 PM
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chadnsc wrote: majid_sabet wrote: What I am trying to say is that a unsafe behavior to some may be very safe to another person and sometimes you just have to accept it. Am I the only one who finds this piece of wisdom hypocritical when coming from Majid?
you can offer your advice but then it could be a good advice or it could turn in to an insult depends on who you are dealing with. I mean, this is like telling an Everest vet to wear a hat cause he going to be cold while hiking in local park
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