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tomcat
Oct 8, 2007, 9:50 PM
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There are two kinds of climbs in the Gunks,ones you have led,and ones you have not.If you have not led them,it's a shady tactic to toprope them first,and and if you have,why bother toproping them.It's that simple.
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desertwanderer81
Oct 8, 2007, 10:30 PM
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shady tactic?! Are you freaking kidding me? Are you really that full of yourself?
GEE, why would you TR a climb at the Gunks? I don't know.....maybe.....they don't own a $1000 trad rack! You might not be able to, but many people still enjoy following or TRing a route.
I own a rack now, and I enjoy trad very much, but by no means do I even pretend that this makes me better than someone who enjoys going out and TR'ing a route!
Man, you really need to go up north or out west if you think that the Gunks is a "trad" area. Real trad is when you are climbing 5+ pitches up the side of a mountain. The Gunks is the sport climbing version of Trad where you lead your 1ish pitch :p
I love the area, and it has some amazing climbs, but it is this great trad area that so many people like to claim that it is. Some people enjoy sport, some people enjoy trad, others TR'ing, and still others boldering. No single climber is superior because he prefers one discipline over the other.
I love being up a thousand feet on a climb, but I also enjoy following some 5.11's and 5.12's that are really kicking my butt. It is a RECREATIONAL SPORT, not a competition, so if you enjoy it, then Have Fun.
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rockguide
Oct 9, 2007, 2:15 AM
Post #153 of 202
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rgold wrote: What I really hate is smoking topropers who leave their vicious dogs tied up at the base of the climb, spreading their gear over half an acre of othewise pristine forest real estate, who cover the climb itself with tickmarks, trundle holds they consider loose and therefore dangerous, and leave their ropes hanging for a fortnight or more. I don't know why, these guys just rub me the wrong way.
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eastvillage
Oct 9, 2007, 3:14 AM
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Climbing IS about leading.
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healyje
Oct 9, 2007, 6:50 AM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: The Gunks is the sport climbing version of Trad ... I love the area, and it has some amazing climbs, but it is this great trad area that so many people like to claim that it is.
The Gunks was and is the very definition of trad climbing and a stout one at that. The statements above speak of broad lack of understanding of climbing history, areas, and trad climbing in general.
This isn't an uncommon state in today's gym-powered climbing world and ties directly into the OP's complaint. There 100's of thousands more 'climbers' today then in the 70's, but the vast majority of these new 'climbers' have neither the skills, inclination, or the interest in trad climbing let alone hard trad routes. Hence, a broad majority of today's 'climbers' are simply looking for an alternative, risk-free [social] entertainment and TR'ing fits the bill perfectly in a place they can't simply clip bolts.
So, given the percentages today, these folks command a significant majority and it shouldn't be surprising to find they attempt to change the order of things to suit their purposes. Periodic maintenance is a good to keep things from getting out of hand, but this is also a case where it's a damn good thing the Gunks is in private hands - otherwise, these same folks would be bolting the sh#t out of the place instead of merely spraying nylon like so much party spray string.
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tomcat
Oct 9, 2007, 10:38 AM
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Just for the record Mr.Wanderer,I do live"up North",just outside North Conway,where I moved to climb better stuff 25 years ago.My Gunks trips are now around 170,mostly weekends.I've toproped there less than ten times I'm sure,and only after leading something.I don't consider the lack of a rack an excuse to toprope at a trad area.The people I climbed with in the Gunks,we often went out of our way to avoid following a route that we wanted to lead,to avoid prior knowledge.Toprope rehearsal is a shady tactic.Toproping is OK in and of itself,but if that is the extent of your ambition,then I think staying left of the Uberfall is a fair compromise.
There are plenty of climbs at every grade up to at least 5.11(extent of my personal knowledge) that you can lead and fall off safely.That was true back in the days of EB's,swami's and spring free climbing,so more so now.And plenty of leads that don't require a 1000 dollar lead rack.
I am full of myself but hardly see what that has to do with this discussion....
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zeth01
Oct 9, 2007, 12:39 PM
Post #157 of 202
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not going t red through all this mess but why the hell would anyone care how anyone else climbs? its ridiculous. top roping a harder route is a wa to learn and to become stronger. obviously if you get to the route at the same time as the top roper the people that are going to trad th route have first dibs but if a top roper is already there WHO CARES. THis sorta makes me wanna o top rope as many routes as possible.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 9, 2007, 12:40 PM
Post #158 of 202
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The Uberfall area was the designated TR area when i hung out there in the eightys. Never saw a TR on any of the multi pitch stuff. Setting a TR on the first pitch of a multi pitch climb is just so lame....... Setting more than one top rope is and camping out is exceptionaly lame INMOP Climb the rt and move on to the next one. Keeps the traffic flowing
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desertwanderer81
Oct 9, 2007, 1:34 PM
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healyje wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: The Gunks is the sport climbing version of Trad ... I love the area, and it has some amazing climbs, but it is this great trad area that so many people like to claim that it is. The Gunks was and is the very definition of trad climbing and a stout one at that. The statements above speak of broad lack of understanding of climbing history, areas, and trad climbing in general. This isn't an uncommon state in today's gym-powered climbing world and ties directly into the OP's complaint. There 100's of thousands more 'climbers' today then in the 70's, but the vast majority of these new 'climbers' have neither the skills, inclination, or the interest in trad climbing let alone hard trad routes. Hence, a broad majority of today's 'climbers' are simply looking for an alternative, risk-free [social] entertainment and TR'ing fits the bill perfectly in a place they can't simply clip bolts. So, given the percentages today, these folks command a significant majority and it shouldn't be surprising to find they attempt to change the order of things to suit their purposes. Periodic maintenance is a good to keep things from getting out of hand, but this is also a case where it's a damn good thing the Gunks is in private hands - otherwise, these same folks would be bolting the sh#t out of the place instead of merely spraying nylon like so much party spray string.
Oh don't get me wrong, I used to think exactly like you do. I used to think that the Gunks was the end all and be all of climbing. Then I moved out west and found out what REAL trad climbing was. The Gunks is just a pitiful excuse for people who are unable to get to real trad climbs.
So a bunch of older folk liked to pretend that their crag was this insane trad climbing area. The techniques required to climb here are always interesting and refreshing and the rock quality is top notch! I still yearn to go back there and climb. Fact of the matter is that they are just as full of themselves as you are for pretending that the Gunks is something that it isn't. If you want a REAL trad area, go to Red Rock Canyon or Yosemite. The Gunks just isn't it.
Oh and to anouther poster: The only time I would give a trad climber priority, is on the first pitch of a "multipitch" climb. Although that doesn't really count for climbs like Classic, etc when the first pitch really is the entire climb.
Anyhow the main point is this, they are there to enjoy themselves, you are there to enjoy yourselves. Your way of enjoying yourself is in now way at all superior to their way of enjoying themselves. Get over it.
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desertwanderer81
Oct 9, 2007, 1:45 PM
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tomcat wrote: I don't consider the lack of a rack an excuse to toprope at a trad area.
In reply to: There are plenty of climbs at every grade up to at least 5.11(extent of my personal knowledge) that you can lead and fall off safely.
In reply to: That was true back in the days of EB's,swami's and spring free climbing,so more so now.And plenty of leads that don't require a 1000 dollar lead rack.
As for the "Cheap Rack" senario. Sure you can do a few climbs there with just nuts and tri-cams, but I personally don't feel that there are enough at a low grade (assuming that is what the beginer who doesn't have a full rack with cams would be climbing at) to justify buying even that!
In reply to: I am full of myself but hardly see what that has to do with this discussion....
SGPS (Small Gunks Penis Syndrom) is also the main reason that grades at the Gunks are so incredibly sandbagged! The excuse of course is that "This is tradition and the way we do things here!" Of course however, this really isn't inline with the rest of the US. I can't count the number of times when I've seen a group of new climbers to the area, eyeballing a climb saying, "Oh, it's only a 5.8, we should be able to do this easily for a warm-up"
I quickly tell them that maybe a 5.6 would be a better warm-up just till they get used to the gear placements here :p
(This post was edited by desertwanderer81 on Oct 9, 2007, 2:07 PM)
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tomcat
Oct 9, 2007, 2:13 PM
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I don't think you could be much further from the truth.Everyone I knew in the Gunks,including some pretty rad people that led 5.13 ground up on gear,saw it for what it was,a moderate sized cliff.The importance of the ground up ethic was purposefully to keep the adventure level as high as possible on a diminutive cliff.Ditto the refusal to succumb to the bolting that beat the crap out of climbing everywhere.
Ever read that quote about Waterman asking Fritz if he just did Hi Ex?He responds that no,Jim did it,because Jim led it.But I guess he was just another confused old man.At least I'm in good company.
What's the difference between climbing 10 5.10's in the Gunks in a day and climbing one ten pitch 5.10 route in Red Rocks?
I have climbed in Red Rocks and Yosemite.And I'd still say the Gunks is as trad as you get here in the states.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 9, 2007, 2:25 PM
Post #162 of 202
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Climbing there is great but too many people...
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tomcat
Oct 9, 2007, 2:32 PM
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Wow.I was typing while you posted your diatribe about penis envy.Apparently you are unable to carry on a civilized conversation with anyone that disagrees with your viewpoint.I don't think you have a clue about Trad climbing.
I climbed hundreds of pitches in the Gunks before cams came out,up to 5.11 in difficulty.In the beginning we pooled our gear to make it happen.And there were no bolted belay anchors to run to.
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retr2327
Oct 9, 2007, 2:36 PM
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"What's the difference between climbing 10 5.10's in the Gunks in a day and climbing one ten pitch 5.10 route in Red Rocks?"
Well, for one thing, get your rope(s) stuck 6 pitches up in Red Rocks and you won't ask that question again!
For another, you can't toprope a 10-pitch climb.
Finally, a 2-hour hike/scramble up rough country vs. an easy stroll down the carriage road . . . .
As for other points, no doubt about it, an on-sight lead is worthy of more respect than a rehearsed lead (TR or second). But it's all climbing, and it's all good.
Besides, if it was all a contest to see who had the biggest cojones, Reardon and co. would have you/us all beat to hell and gone.
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tomcat
Oct 9, 2007, 2:41 PM
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Can you name a ten pitch climb in Red Rocks with every pitch at 5.10?Any climb there with ten pitches of ten?
Does getting your rope stuck make it Trad?I didn't know that.
Hiking two hours makes it Trad?Really?
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 9, 2007, 3:03 PM
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The whole agument that we can't afford a trad rack so we have so sit here smoke dope and top rope all day is a bunch of HOGWASH Many of the top rope wankers that I run into have SHINY trad rack laying there that rarely gets used. Thats why its shiny... If you don't lead EVERY time you go out you won't ever get any good at it. Additionaly if you are serious about becomeing a real climber maby you would lay off buying weed untill you have decent rack The thousand dollar rack is nice but you can get an heck of a lot of climbing done with a set of stoppers and a few tri cams. Pool your resorces and keep putting that rack together one piece at a time. Next time you think about wasting money on restarunte food or drinks in a bar don't. Cook at home, eat peanut butter and ramen noodles. Drink Genny cream ale and cheap whisky. Put that rack together and become a real climber or sit there and and yo yo all day on one effin climb like the stoned loser that you are
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desertwanderer81
Oct 9, 2007, 3:08 PM
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If you can't see the difference between 10 pitches of 5.10 and 10 single pitch 5.10 climbs, I'm not sure you really understand what trad climbing really is.
There is something about just being out there, a thousand feet up, breathing the air and being lost in the moment. Now I'm not saying that you have to climb 10 pitch climbs every time you go out, nor am I even saying that the person climbing the 10 pitches is even more "worthy" than you are. However there is a VERY real difference in the two.
Climbing is different things for different people. For some, it is the chance to be out there on the rock. For others, it is a great workout. Others still it is pulling some insanely hard grades and pushing yourself to see how hard you can climb. Others still it is the thrill of leading something amazing. For others it is the danger of knowing that your cam could possibly pop out.
No one has any right to say that the guy who is TR'ing is getting any less out of climbing than you are nor any less worthy.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 9, 2007, 3:13 PM
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Yea but the guy who gets stuck in the top rope rut will NEVER know what its like to rap Dream Of Wild Turkeys at dusk with the wind blowing the ropes sideways, stumble back into camp exausted and really earn that beer.
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desertwanderer81
Oct 9, 2007, 3:17 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: The whole agument that we can't afford a trad rack so we have so sit here smoke dope and top rope all day is a bunch of HOGWASH Many of the top rope wankers that I run into have SHINY trad rack laying there that rarely gets used. Thats why its shiny... If you don't lead EVERY time you go out you won't ever get any good at it. Additionaly if you are serious about becomeing a real climber maby you would lay off buying weed untill you have decent rack The thousand dollar rack is nice but you can get an heck of a lot of climbing done with a set of stoppers and a few tri cams. Pool your resorces and keep putting that rack together one piece at a time. Next time you think about wasting money on restarunte food or drinks in a bar don't. Cook at home, eat peanut butter and ramen noodles. Drink Genny cream ale and cheap whisky. Put that rack together and become a real climber or sit there and and yo yo all day on one effin climb like the stoned loser that you are
This is actually exactly what I did, and how I have my rack today. My gosh it is eclecic! lol. I picked up some second hand cams (from a good friend who was getting newer lighter cams), a set of nuts, etc and was able to put enough together so that I can do quite a bit. I only have one set of cams so there are a lot stuff I can't do, but aha! We combine our gear together so we can actually do just about anything (Except for climbs in Utah where you need 8 of the same sized cam :p)
Anyhow, you make very good points, but the main thing is that it takes TIME and I would never expect someone not to climb or be a "second class climbing citizen" in that time while they are assembling those racks.
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lucander
Oct 9, 2007, 3:23 PM
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funnelator wrote: Leader priority etiquette could dictate that when leaders arrive, topropers should bow their heads in deference and quietly withdraw to a respectful distance, sort of like black folk making way for white folk, by moving to the back of the bus, before the days of Rosa Parks. Leader priority is nothing more, or less, than a load of elitist shite.
As a Black studies Ph.D. candidate, it is my professional opinion that this analogy overlooks a key historic fact. Racial priviledge in rthe United States was inherited by birth, enforced by law, and reinforced by violence. Leader rights are earned by women and men who stick their necks out to lead a climb. Moreover, imagined rights toa climb are abdicated by top ropers who overchalk and polish holds and do not risk a moment of uncomfort to free a climb in the purest traditional climbing ethics.
David
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desertwanderer81
Oct 9, 2007, 3:25 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Yea but the guy who gets stuck in the top rope rut will NEVER know what its like to rap Dream Of Wild Turkeys at dusk with the wind blowing the ropes sideways, stumble back into camp exausted and really earn that beer.
Then again, the single pitch trad climber who has a road right next to the cliff will never really know that feeling either.
But yeah, there really is something special about that feeling that you described.....
Brings back some good memories. :)
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desertwanderer81
Oct 9, 2007, 3:32 PM
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lucander wrote: funnelator wrote: Leader priority etiquette could dictate that when leaders arrive, topropers should bow their heads in deference and quietly withdraw to a respectful distance, sort of like black folk making way for white folk, by moving to the back of the bus, before the days of Rosa Parks. Leader priority is nothing more, or less, than a load of elitist shite. As a Black studies Ph.D. candidate, it is my professional opinion that this analogy overlooks a key historic fact. Racial priviledge in rthe United States was inherited by birth, enforced by law, and reinforced by violence. Leader rights are earned by women and men who stick their necks out to lead a climb. Moreover, imagined rights toa climb are abdicated by top ropers who overchalk and polish holds and do not risk a moment of uncomfort to free a climb in the purest traditional climbing ethics. David
God I hate the Rosa Parks analogy.....
It's like, did you, (probably a white privledged male) just compare TR'ing/Trad climbing to racial inequality in the early 20'th century where you would be lynched if you winked at a white girl if you were black? LOL I get a kick out of it.
Anyhow, your statements of "one is better than the other" would hold very true, if climbing wasn't about what it does for you. It is a recreational activity which we each enjoy different aspects of. No one can say one person is better than the other in the slightest.
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retr2327
Oct 9, 2007, 3:35 PM
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"Can you name a ten pitch climb in Red Rocks with every pitch at 5.10?Any climb there with ten pitches of ten?
Does getting your rope stuck make it Trad?I didn't know that.
Hiking two hours makes it Trad?Really? "
Maybe you should re-read your words again. Here they are:
"What's the difference between climbing 10 5.10's in the Gunks in a day and climbing one ten pitch 5.10 route in Red Rocks?"
1) It's pretty well accepted that a ten pitch route with a pitch at 5.10 is rated, overall, at 5.10. For an example, see Inti Watana.
2) You didn't ask what makes it Trad. You asked what the difference was.
3) See # 2.
Word parsing aside, the gist of the discussion was that climbing trad at some other areas (such as Red Rocks or Yosemite) generally requires a higher level of "commitment" than climbing at the Gunks (just like leading trad requires a higher level of commitment). Given that you've climbed at both, I suspect you would agree.
Of course, we did have some geniuses call for a rescue when they got benighted at the Gunks . . . .
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healyje
Oct 9, 2007, 3:38 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: The Gunks is just a pitiful excuse for people who are unable to get to real trad climbs. ... If you want a REAL trad area, go to Red Rock Canyon or Yosemite. The Gunks.
Well, I "live out west" and have for twenty years and like many others, do climb at these places. I'll be in RR in two weeks and was last there in March when I and one of the old locals put up a 9 pitch FA up in FCC.
Look, you so misunderstand what trad climbing is as to make it difficult to know how to really respond and one can only suspect if you are this misguided now you are likely impenetrable to reason. Trad climbing has nothing to do with altitude or setting - it is entirely about how you approach and climb a line. Endless hard Gunks routes were done ground up, onsight, cleaning free on lead, and without cams for that matter.
While your insistance in reiterating your ignorance on the matter is admiriable, if somewhat breathtaking, it gives one pause to wonder sort of things you climb - and how - regardless of where you are currently climbing.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 9, 2007, 3:42 PM
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Desert , you are wrong on that one. The single pitch trad climb teaches most of the skills needed to climb multi pitch trad were as the top rope mearly teaches you how to be social. No reason that a climber who climbs single pitch trad all week cant' go do multi pitch on the weekend weras the top rope wanker is still gonna be sitting there with their bag of weed, the dog the boom box and their posse of like minded wankers leaving cig butts, cliff bar wrappers and trampleing the heck out of the place.
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