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desertwanderer81
Oct 9, 2007, 3:47 PM
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healyje wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: The Gunks is just a pitiful excuse for people who are unable to get to real trad climbs. ... If you want a REAL trad area, go to Red Rock Canyon or Yosemite. The Gunks. Well, I "live out west" and have for twenty years and like many others, do climb at these places. I'll be in RR in two weeks and was last there in March when I and one of the old locals put up a 9 pitch FA up in FCC. Look, you so misunderstand what trad climbing is as to make it difficult to know how to really respond and one can only suspect if you are this misguided now you are likely impenetrable to reason. Trad climbing has nothing to do with altitude or setting - it is entirely about how you approach and climb a line. Endless hard Gunks routes were done ground up, onsight, cleaning free on lead, and without cams for that matter. While your insistance in reiterating your ignorance on the matter is admiriable, if somewhat breathtaking, it gives one pause to wonder sort of things you climb - and how - regardless of where you are currently climbing.
YAY Insults!! The ultimate way to make your point!
I climbed for 3 solid years at the Gunks before moving to Las Vegas where I climb at RR 3 days a week. As for where I climb at RR, it all depends on how much time I have. If it is after work, I'll climb a few sport routes and call it a day. If I have a full day on the weekend, I'll hit up some multi-pitch on the west side of the canyon. I've been there and done it all. I've been on both sides of the equation from the guy who can only TR to the guy who would much rather hit up some multi-pitch. And I can honestly say that neither is better! I enjoyed both a great deal.
" it gives one pause to wonder sort of things you climb"
So what exactly do you pretend to mean by this? Especially when you and I have probably climbed many of the same routes.
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moose_droppings
Oct 9, 2007, 3:50 PM
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tomcat wrote: I don't think you could be much further from the truth.Everyone I knew in the Gunks,including some pretty rad people that led 5.13 ground up on gear,saw it for what it was,a moderate sized cliff.The importance of the ground up ethic was purposefully to keep the adventure level as high as possible on a diminutive cliff.Ditto the refusal to succumb to the bolting that beat the crap out of climbing everywhere. Ever read that quote about Waterman asking Fritz if he just did Hi Ex?He responds that no,Jim did it,because Jim led it.But I guess he was just another confused old man.At least I'm in good company. What's the difference between climbing 10 5.10's in the Gunks in a day and climbing one ten pitch 5.10 route in Red Rocks?
I have climbed in Red Rocks and Yosemite.And I'd still say the Gunks is as trad as you get here in the states.
History loves preservation, and this gem isn't sliding into obscurity.
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desertwanderer81
Oct 9, 2007, 3:53 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Desert , you are wrong on that one. The single pitch trad climb teaches most of the skills needed to climb multi pitch trad were as the top rope mearly teaches you how to be social. No reason that a climber who climbs single pitch trad all week cant' go do multi pitch on the weekend weras the top rope wanker is still gonna be sitting there with their bag of weed, the dog the boom box and their posse of like minded wankers leaving cig butts, cliff bar wrappers and trampleing the heck out of the place.
YAY for unjustified steriotypes! Don't get me wrong, there are folks like that, but the vast majority of TR'ers are just as respectful as your trad climber. Especially when 99% of all trad climbers get their start either TR'ing or following. We didn't start the first day out leading.
Now what does TR'ing teach? It teaches anchor building, technique, and the beginings of confidence. It is the start of bigger things.
More than that though, people are enjoying themselves on the rock, and isn't that what it is all about? You enjoy yourself differently than they do.
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funnelator
Oct 9, 2007, 3:59 PM
Post #179 of 202
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Can't we all just get along?
We shall overhang,
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desertwanderer81
Oct 9, 2007, 4:00 PM
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funnelator wrote: Can't we all just get along? We shall overhang,
Sigh...there is so little respect for our fellow climbers....
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moose_droppings
Oct 9, 2007, 4:04 PM
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funnelator wrote: Can't we all just get along? We shall overhang,
Not when some think their overhung.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 9, 2007, 4:14 PM
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Top ropeing is a good way to get started and also a good way to push the envelope of technique. It has its time and place . That is NOT on the first pitch of a multi pitch climb. Additionally way too many people get stuck there and never leave. Tope ropers tend to come in groups and that is ALLWAYS a higher impact than a leading team. It's the gym mentality brought outdoors and it sucks. The lead mentality is to travel in teams of 2 or 3. If there are 4 of us we split into two ropes. We show up and we climb.; The TR gym mentality is to hang a bunch of ropes and make a presence at the cliff. Yuk!!
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desertwanderer81
Oct 9, 2007, 4:24 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Top ropeing is a good way to get started and also a good way to push the envelope of technique. It has its time and place . That is NOT on the first pitch of a multi pitch climb. Additionally way too many people get stuck there and never leave. Tope ropers tend to come in groups and that is ALLWAYS a higher impact than a leading team. It's the gym mentality brought outdoors and it sucks. The lead mentality is to travel in teams of 2 or 3. If there are 4 of us we split into two ropes. We show up and we climb.; The TR gym mentality is to hang a bunch of ropes and make a presence at the cliff. Yuk!!
Heh, I never said that you should be TR'ing the first pitch of a multi-pitch climb. Back in my Gunks days, I introduced several people to climbing in groups of 5 (including myself, or so). Some even own their own racks now :D. We only had one rope though and offered to go somewhere else if a line started building up on the route we were doing.
However if there is a group of 4 TR'ers, vs 2 groups of trad climbers, and both are respectful, I tend to think that the trad climbers would do slightly more damage to the enviroment as the cams and nuts can do slight damage to the rock.
As long as the TR folk don't kill the trees....nothing pisses me off more than that.....
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funnelator
Oct 9, 2007, 4:27 PM
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OK, if you insist on being serious....
Tradman, if you don't like toproping, don't do it. But don't come down here from VT and expect us to worry about what you think. Those of us that like to lead do so frequently but many of us also liike to hang out and climb with groups of friends. Don't like it? Not a problem. You are free to go climb something else.
Lucander, you make a good point about my racism analogy. It was inappropriate. On the other hand, your opinion that toropers have abdicated anything is just more elitist shite. All special rights to the cliff are imaginary: leaders rights, topropers rights, boulderers rights, soloists rights. No group or style has right of way over any other, at least here in the gunks. The tradition and Preserve policy are both first come first served.
Now can we all return to having a good time?
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moose_droppings
Oct 9, 2007, 4:30 PM
Post #186 of 202
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funnelator wrote: In reply to: Not when some think their overhung. Think? I measured. I know. 
Did you remember to convert from mm to inches?
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desertwanderer81
Oct 9, 2007, 4:39 PM
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funnelator wrote: OK, if you insist on being serious.... Tradman, if you don't like toproping, don't do it. But don't come down here from VT and expect us to worry about what you think. Those of us that like to lead do so frequently but many of us also liike to hang out and climb with groups of friends. Don't like it? Not a problem. You are free to go climb something else. Lucander, you make a good point about my racism analogy. It was inappropriate. On the other hand, your opinion that toropers have abdicated anything is just more elitist shite. All special rights to the cliff are imaginary: leaders rights, topropers rights, boulderers rights, soloists rights. No group or style has right of way over any other, at least here in the gunks. The tradition and Preserve policy are both first come first served. Now can we all return to having a good time?
I don't get why some folks insist on saying that their style is superior. I mean, it is fairly typical of humanity in general.
Who is better, the person with the 5.14d sport project or the person climbing 10 pitches of 5.9? The answer is, "Neither"
We each have our different styles and enjoy our own activities equally.
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 9, 2007, 4:46 PM
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Don't worry funalator. I rarely climb the gunks anymore. Too many people, too much crime. However parking a top rope party at the base of a multi pitch climb is still bad form no matter where you climb.
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desertwanderer81
Oct 9, 2007, 4:57 PM
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tradmanclimbs wrote: Don't worry funalator. I rarely climb the gunks anymore. Too many people, too much crime. However parking a top rope party at the base of a multi pitch climb is still bad form no matter where you climb.
I've seen this once, ever (and that one time I was upset too) I've probably climbed at the Gunks near 100 times. Honestly, how often do you see this? Or is it more of the fact that it stays in your mind.
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funnelator
Oct 9, 2007, 5:07 PM
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Trad, in practice I doubt we'd get in each others way anyway. The toprope group thing happens almost exclusively on single pitch climbs and as I said before we frequently defer to others. We do on rare occasion set up TRs on the first pitch of things like Welcome to the Gunks and Fall to Grace or even Enduroman, but only on weekdays or when the cliff is pretty much empty. If someone even looks sideways at it I'll pull or just finish the route.
Much more frequently though, when other climbers do happen across us on such climbs, they remark, "gee, can I get a ride?"
Have fun wherever and however you choose to climb.
Peace
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retr2327
Oct 9, 2007, 5:23 PM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: tradmanclimbs wrote: Don't worry funalator. I rarely climb the gunks anymore. Too many people, too much crime. However parking a top rope party at the base of a multi pitch climb is still bad form no matter where you climb. I've seen this once, ever (and that one time I was upset too) I've probably climbed at the Gunks near 100 times. Honestly, how often do you see this? Or is it more of the fact that it stays in your mind.
Desertwanderer, for the first time, I'd have to disagree with you. TR'ing on the first pitch of multi-pitch climbs is indeed quite common at the Gunks (e.g., M.F., Birdie Party, Snookie's, etc.).
Of course, our difference of opinion on this could be partially a consequence of the fact that many climbs may have 2d pitches, but only the 1st pitch is typically climbed. See list above. In all 3 cases (and many others), the 2d pitches are delightful and well worth doing, but are commonly skipped even by trad leaders. OTOH, there's no shortage of great trad leads that virtually never get TR'ed.
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desertwanderer81
Oct 9, 2007, 5:29 PM
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retr2327 wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: tradmanclimbs wrote: Don't worry funalator. I rarely climb the gunks anymore. Too many people, too much crime. However parking a top rope party at the base of a multi pitch climb is still bad form no matter where you climb. I've seen this once, ever (and that one time I was upset too) I've probably climbed at the Gunks near 100 times. Honestly, how often do you see this? Or is it more of the fact that it stays in your mind. Desertwanderer, for the first time, I'd have to disagree with you. TR'ing on the first pitch of multi-pitch climbs is indeed quite common at the Gunks (e.g., M.F., Birdie Party, Snookie's, etc.). Of course, our difference of opinion on this could be partially a consequence of the fact that many climbs may have 2d pitches, but only the 1st pitch is typically climbed. See list above. In all 3 cases (and many others), the 2d pitches are delightful and well worth doing, but are commonly skipped even by trad leaders. OTOH, there's no shortage of great trad leads that virtually never get TR'ed.
Heh, well I wasn't counting climbs where P1 is a fantastic 5.7 and P2 is some scraggily 5.3 that you can practically walk up....Heck I've done plenty of trad routes where I only did P1 too and just rapped off the chains instead of doing P2.
Anyhow, as far as routes with two good 2 pitches, I've only seen the bottom pitch TR'ed once.
Edit: I tend to call most of those climbs at the Gunks, 1 pitch with a stout scramble :p
(This post was edited by desertwanderer81 on Oct 9, 2007, 5:42 PM)
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 9, 2007, 5:48 PM
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Reason you guys don't go to the top of a lot of those climbs is because you are trained not to. Its not that the climbing isn't good in many cases. Roseland is a prime example of this gunks phenomenum. The 2nd pitch is quite interesting and the crux INMOP Not as physical as the first pitch but more technicle and thought provokeing yet many who claim to have led Roseland have never done it
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tradmanclimbs
Oct 9, 2007, 8:42 PM
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Interesting, I allways enjoy being out on the cliff no matter what the grade and certainly don't feel like I am wasteing my time by climbing to the top of the cliff... Must be that gym mentality
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tomcat
Oct 9, 2007, 9:22 PM
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Heh...if you don't do the second pitch of MF or Birdie Party,you haven't done the route.
P.S.Mr.Wanderer,how do you learn anchor building as a toproper without a rack?
(This post was edited by tomcat on Oct 9, 2007, 9:26 PM)
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desertwanderer81
Oct 9, 2007, 9:51 PM
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Well, you do learn the principles of building an equalised system. You might not know how to place gear for it, but the rest of the essentials are all the same.
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cchas
Oct 17, 2007, 4:35 AM
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funnelator wrote: In reply to: ......I can see little reason or hope, in a crowded environment now populated by many climbers with no sense of, interest in, or respect for tradition, that such principles as "leader priority" would carry any weight whatsoever. Rich, there are traditions that shouldn't be respected or handed down to new generations. The tradition of segregation based on race for example. In my opinion "leader priority" is a such a tradition. Imagine Joe Leader coming down the cliff, saying, in a deep booming God like voice, as angels sing and light breaks through the clouds above, "YOU THERE....YOU THERE TOP ROPING......MAKE WAY....I'M A LEADER!!!" Or perhaps leaders shouldn't even have to say anything. Leader priority etiquette could dictate that when leaders arrive, topropers should bow their heads in deference and quietly withdraw to a respectful distance, sort of like black folk making way for white folk, by moving to the back of the bus, before the days of Rosa Parks. Leader priority is nothing more, or less, than a load of elitist shite. Shite that creates conflict by leaders promoting their own interests at the expense of everyone else. It's reminiscent too of Appie rules in days of yore that dictated who could climb what, and where, and in what style. I say this as someone who is almost always on the sharp end. For me leading is climbing and climbing is leading. It would, however, be absurd and obnoxious, for me, or any other leader, to walk down the cliff and expect people not climbing in the style we prefer to make way for our exalted leader selves. The argument that top ropers somehow take more time than leaders doesn't wash either. What difference is there between five pairs of leaders coming through and climbing a route and a party of ten top roping the same route? None. The top ropers will probably take less time however. There are many gunks traditions worth respecting and passing on. Leader priority isn't one of them. The Preserve policy of first come first served is appropriate.
It was good going through all 8 pages of drivel (had some time to waste). Of the 8 pages this is one of the few that makes sense. When did "rules" written into guidebooks that are suppose to help define curtiousy become so twisted. Don't like the crowds, go on a Monday or Tuesday. Can't get out on a week day, take a hike to the Slime Wall area (I used to always be down there).
The preserve could care less if you are a TRer or a leader. I don't care less (unless you throw a rope on top of me setting up a TR before I get gear in when I am 60% of the way up an X-rated route (has happened to me in the past there) but then again that breaks my rule 1: Common curtiousy.
I loved my time in the Gunks, it was part of my formative years. Its the scene I can do without.
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donaldjamesperry
Apr 9, 2012, 9:20 AM
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decorator_crab wrote: BradP wrote: The Gunks is supposedly a climbing destination ensconced in traditional ethics. That is, a climbing area where routes are led from the ground up and ideally without permanently placed protection. In fact, many routes have been put up in the Gunks in impeccable style; hundreds of fine examples abound. Jacob's Ladder is quintessential. In 1960 Phil Jacobus on-sight led the first ascent of the Gunks' first 5.10. Jacob's Ladder is now rated 10b X. The 1970s saw the firm establishment of 5.12 in the Gunks, routes such as The Throne, Kama Sutra and Kansas City were established - the first ascentionists adhering to a staunch traditional ethic. Meanwhile Rich Romano developed Millbrook in the purest of style, forcing the creation of many R and X rated testpieces. In 1975 Creature Features saw its FA, only to have its first first ascentionists berated by Henry Barber as they had "Violated the high stylistic standards of the day by previewing the route... [on] toprope" (Dick Williams). Mark Robinson of Creature Features' FA party repented after Barber's chastising. The 80's saw a cadre of hard climbers out to demonstrate that difficult routes could be climbed ground up and without the use of pre-placed protection. This past weekend I saw countless top-ropes obscuring the rock at the Nears and Trapps alike. Routes with proud histories are now being top-roped by 5.8 climbers (just because you can top-rope 5.11 or 5.12 does not mean you are a 5.11 or 5.12 climber). This undermines the potential for a 5.11 or 5.12 leader to repeat a route in the style of the FA. A progressive mindset dictates that one repeat the past with the minimum being the manner of the first ascent. No reversionism please. Worse than top-roping routes into submission however is the unnecessary clutter of flashy nylon adorning the gray quartzite as fixed top-rope anchors. With the dictums established by past generations of Gunks climbers and leave no trace ethics in mind, I chose to begin the task of eliminating unnecessary clutter from the rock. I took a first step by removing years of slings off of the classic Bonnie's Roof. Many arbitrary anchors as these abound throughout the Gunks which serve no purpose other than to facilitate the ease of a top-rope ascent of a nearby route. Most of all climb safe. I'll see you out there, Brad Brad, This is an excellent post. I'd only add a couple things to it. The problem isn't really topropers. The problem is GANGs of n00bs who think that stringing a whole series of topropes is ok. Climbing is not a team sport! When you and your group of 8 or 10 go to climb, you are having a disproportional negative impact on everyone else's experiece. You are being an ASSHOLE, whether you realize it or not. it may seem like a good idea to have 5 topropes set up for your jolly little group of beginners, and you may think you are courteous and friendly, and offer to let others climb through. But when someone for whom climbing is just more than a fun Saturday romp comes through and sees your gang roping antics, it makes them sick. It's true. The last place I want to be is climbing surrounded by a posse of jolly gumbies. I don't hate gumbies or n00bs. I do hate large groups of them. Go for a hike if you want a fun group activity in the woods. If you're just a group of two, I have no problem with a toprope. It's just when the groups start thinking about how they want to get a lot of climbing in and, aha! they decide to hang 5 or 6 ropes that things start to SUCK for everyone. If you really wanted to climb more in your day, you'd learn to lead, which is faster and more efficient. Not to mention that its a million times more fun. Leave your gang toproping in the gym.
This ethic thing is good to strive for, leading without top-ropes or inspection. Yet arguably in cases that style is void when you must aid through on the first accent, such as on a big wall. In that case you will inevitably know more then someone who has no knowledge. And to say that person is disqualified from the better style is irrelevant. But more important however these days, what matters more is if people are getting hurt or not. Climber injuries and fatalities among rubies is a bigger issue that threatens climbing for all of us. Skytop is a perfect example. I suppose the idea that numerous rubies should campout on climbs would also be a problem, if it was over there. But the important thing is that the rubies stay rubies and do not turn into nobies.
Furthermore, if someone wants to practice a route on top rope before they lead it, this is safer. Today the safe climb ethic has killed the rock-climbing star. Today looking good for property owners, not fellow climbers, is what counts! Put up routes in the best style you can, but do not get hurt in the process. Get all the experience you can before you try something and you should be able to do anything. But if not then top rope it first and get your experience directly on route, and let someone else come after you and do it in better style, that works too. Nothing to be ashamed of. The better style today is proving that rock-climbing can be at times just as safe a sport as hiking. Climbers can climb without ever getting hurt, that is what we need to prove to the world, and not something else. Once you get hurt climbing you have lost the game, not only for yourself, but for the rest of us as well. And impossible mission, maybe, but this is the ethic we need to strive for and not some other ethic.
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