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ajkclay
Nov 7, 2007, 5:05 AM
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sandstone wrote: ... a toothed ascender that I know has the potential to badly damage the rope.
Well, the problem I see here is that there's a faulty assumption that a toothed ascender has the potential to damage a rope. If used correctly it doesn't.
It's faulty logic to take into account incorrect usage, because by that logic most climbing gear could be argued to be too dangerous to use, including a gri-gri.
In reply to: If you've fallen on overhanging terrain and you're free hanging...
Self-belaying on overhanging terrain is a pain in the ass at the best of times... it's not worth the effort so not much of a consideration in my book, I guess if you really really want to climb something with a severe overhang a gri-gri might be better, but the prussik method you mention is easy and quick to set up, and what I have used on the few times I've bothered.
I guess there's a difference in our perspective on what we're looking for:
I want something that will allow me to climb with very little interference from systems while in the act of climbing. My toothed ascender gives me this. I don't really mind the minute of extra work in systems when getting off the route because I'm no longer climbing and happy to mess around with non-climbing (as in progression) stuff.
It appears you don't mind interrupting your climbing with systems-based stuff such as tying safety knots regularly. In which case this method suits you, which is cool too.
I just like to climb a route and enjoy the flow of all the moves as a connected whole, without interruption. A Gri gri doesn't really allow for this.
Both methods have their trade-offs I guess.
Cheers,
Adam
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ajkclay
Nov 7, 2007, 5:08 AM
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^^^
Forgot to add that I do like the idea of being able to rap straight away after a climb... some sort of combo device would be awesome.
How often do you tie safety loops and how easy does the gri-gri feed? You'd have to do it manually wouldn't you?
Cheers,
Adam
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ryanb
Nov 7, 2007, 6:51 AM
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If you are interested in saving money/multi function, get two petzl (or similar) handled ascenders. You are going to need them much more then a pro traxion if you are going to be aiding (that is how you follow/clean an aid pitch...). You wont need a pro traxion until you start doing climbs that requiring hauling heavy loads which usually means 3+ day stuff for shorter stuff, jug/climb with a back pack, man up and haul hand over hand or build a hauling system using your ascender (and a carbiner or puly) or an alpine clutch knot etc...
Most aid climbers I know also use gri gris either as a solo lead belay device or to make lengthy aid belays more tolerable.
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sandstone
Nov 7, 2007, 5:07 PM
Post #54 of 69
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In reply to: Well, the problem I see here is that there's a faulty assumption that a toothed ascender has the potential to damage a rope. If used correctly it doesn't.
Adam, there are documented cases where toothed ascenders have badly damaged the rope. I don't remember if any were specifically related to solo TR, but the potential is there. You may be able to find a few reports by searching this site, and Google should turn up some more.
Have you read Howard Peel's page on self belaying?
http://www.thebikezone.org.uk/therockzone/selfbelay.html
In reply to: It's faulty logic to take into account incorrect usage, because by that logic most climbing gear could be argued to be too dangerous to use, including a gri-gri.
I think it's faulty logic to assume that things will always go perfectly, and that there is no chance that you can fall with slack in your system. It can and does happen. Once I was pulling up around the lip of a roof (using an ascender self belay, with the bottom of the rope weighted) and noticed I had quite a bit of slack. Apparently when I brought my legs up underneath the roof the rope got pinched in my pants or harness or something, and being quite occupied getting through the roof I didn't notice the slack until I turned the roof. That wasn't faulty logic, and it was not incorrect usage -- it was just one of those things that can and will happen.
In reply to: Self-belaying on overhanging terrain is a pain in the ass at the best of times... it's not worth the effort so not much of a consideration in my book
??? It's no more of a pain than any other terrain, the rigging is exactly the same.
In reply to: I guess if you really really want to climb something with a severe overhang a gri-gri might be better, but the prussik method you mention is easy and quick to set up, and what I have used on the few times I've bothered.
I think the GriGri is safer on any terrain. The convenience and speed it adds is just a happy by product.
In reply to: I want something that will allow me to climb with very little interference from systems while in the act of climbing. My toothed ascender gives me this.
And you'll be happy and safe as long as everything always goes according to plan.
In reply to: It appears you don't mind interrupting your climbing with systems-based stuff such as tying safety knots regularly. In which case this method suits you, which is cool too.
I clip into a butterfly knot on my second rope at least once during a climb, just to keep me from decking if there's a catastrophic failure on my other system (biner gets cross loaded, GriGri doesn't grab, etc.).
In reply to: I just like to climb a route and enjoy the flow of all the moves as a connected whole, without interruption. A Gri gri doesn't really allow for this.
I hear ya. I still occasionally use my Rescucender rig. It works pretty well for easy stuff where I know I can get to the top, and I know I can always be in contact with the rock. For harder stuff it's the GriGri, because there's a real good chance I'll need to rappel off after falling, and the GriGri excels in this situation.
Funny thing is, I've never been a GriGri fan in general. I don't recall ever belaying a partner with my GriGri. I just use it for soloing, and it's also good to use when rapelling down to clean loose rock from a new route, because it's good for stopping mid rap.
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ajkclay
Nov 7, 2007, 11:54 PM
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... too many quotes to deal with one at a time, but basically, the article mentions the threat of rope severance with both the basic and the gri-gri...
It also makes some pretty broad statements about what is and isn't legitimate climbing which calls into question the veracity of the information being given; basically the author does not mind stating his personal opinion as fact, something which immediately sets off alarm bells in my mind.
His assertions that a basic will fur the rope through normal use is pointless... top roping normally will also do this... it is not merely the domain of the basic.
Also:
In reply to: The cam on a basic has rather a pronounced square edge which in a high factor fall might cause the rope sheath to fail or even the rope to be severed.
It's not possible to fall more than the length of the rope out unless you have climbed past your anchor in a TR SB situation therefore all fall factors will be less than 1.
There are always the chances of error with any system, but a properly set-up basic does not present many problems, especially the slack-in-the-system scenario... an attentive climber who would presumably have to have the same level of attentiveness in tying knots would also be ensuring that the rope is feeding well - it is very very easy to pull excess through a basic and this can be done one-handed in less that a second. The minute amount of slack that may make its way into a system while pulling a roof will not be enough to cause rope damage...
If anything that article makes me more likely to want to use a Basic in preference to a gri-gri.
Especially when the gri-gri needs to be modified outside of manufacturers specs into something called a Death modified gri-gri 
Holy shit!
Anyhoo, each to his own, we are talking opinion and personal preference here, neither one of us is dead and I don't recall hearing of anyone dying using either method, so I think the best thing to do is agree to disagree and buy each other a beer if we're ever in the same neck of the woods 
And then you can show me yours and I can show you mine.
Cheers Mate
Adam
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sticky_fingers
Nov 8, 2007, 12:28 AM
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I have to echo Adam here...the Basic is designed not to penetrate through the sheath. How you ask? By little bitty teeth, and their steep pointing angle. Also, like Adam said, do what you want to do, but not using a proven and tested safety device in the way it was intended to be used might have an opposite effect of placating your concerns.
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andypro
Nov 8, 2007, 1:03 AM
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The arguments currently going on in this thread makes me wonder if the detractors of toothed cams actualy know that the teeth don't hold any weight.
All they do is allow the cam to do it's thing. They dont add stress into the sheath by themselves. The only way they could is if you used a rope that was too small, or used it in a manner not prescribed by the manufacturer.
--Andy P
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sandstone
Nov 8, 2007, 4:52 PM
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Howard Peel's page is just that -- his page. He gives some links to related info, and gives his comments and opinions. Everyone is free to put up their own page -- there is no definitive guide to this, and there never will be. Peel's page is a good resource in that it lists many of the options in one place, and gives some discussion on the pros and cons of each.
Obviously there is more than one way to do a self belay, and in the end it's up to each person to decide what they are comfortable with.
I pretty much abandonded the ascender approach because I'm just not comfortable subjecting it to a dynamic load. The roof I mentioned was not small, I ended up with 6 feet or more of slack. I'm a very attentive rigger/climber and I had everything setup "right", but while grunting through a difficult section I just did not notice that somehow my rope got pinched and was going slack. It was enough slack to get my attention and make me reconsider my approach.
I had made the assumption that with proper rigging and attentiveness that I would never subject my ascender to a load it could not handle. That was a bad assumption.
I settled on a GriGri based system because I'm much more comfortable subjecting it to a dynamic load. That may never happen, but I know for a fact that it can happen, even when everything is done "right".
My opinion is that everyone doing this should assume that slack can and will occur, and choose their rigging accordingly.
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moose_droppings
Nov 8, 2007, 5:32 PM
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andypro wrote: The arguments currently going on in this thread makes me wonder if the detractors of toothed cams actualy know that the teeth don't hold any weight. All they do is allow the cam to do it's thing. They dont add stress into the sheath by themselves. The only way they could is if you used a rope that was too small, or used it in a manner not prescribed by the manufacturer. --Andy P
That be right if they never saw anything but a small amount of force. All the cam style devices will slip under a certain amount of force, and if its got teeth, its under this slippage that the rope gets shredded to some degree.
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sandstone
Nov 8, 2007, 7:48 PM
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In reply to: ..the gri-gri needs to be modified outside of manufacturers specs into something called a Death modified gri-gri ...Holy shit!
I use a standard GriGri with no modifications.
Some people have made mods to make the rope feed smoother, but it is not required by any means.
The rig I use is pretty much what Climbing Mag shows in their Tech Tip, except without the bolts and I don't bother with knots in the rope below the GriGri (because I've got a backup clip to the second rope). I was using this rig long before that article ran, and probably a lot of other folks were too.
http://www.climbing.com/print/techtips/ttsport253/
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andypro
Nov 8, 2007, 11:56 PM
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moose_droppings wrote: That be right if they never saw anything but a small amount of force. All the cam style devices will slip under a certain amount of force, and if its got teeth, its under this slippage that the rope gets shredded to some degree.
I cant disagree with you here. Yes, a toothed ascender can very well shred the sheath or even sever the rope. But...so can a non toothed one (ushba, yates rocker, etc).
The point of my mention of the manufacturers recommended stuff is that Petzl (the only company that I know of that rates their regular ascenders for self belay) gives very strict and distinct guidelines about what to do and what not to do. They outline the forces that can be sustained and the level of damage that can likely result from said forces.
If you're mindful of these situations and methods, you will have no more potential risk with a toothed ascender as a non toothed one. If rigged properly, you shouldn't be getting very much force on a top rope (which is what we're talking here) using a croll, or a basic, or a full handled ascender. Barring some horrible accident, you'll be well within the force limits of creating damage to your rope.
My original comment was more an observation taken from the context of most of the replies about using toothed ascenders. He said, she said, OMGURGUNNUDIELOL!!!111, etc etc. is nothing to base your assumptions on the safety of gear... and throughout the thread, it really seems that that's what people are using in making a decision as to what is and isn't dangerous.
--Andy P
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ajkclay
Nov 9, 2007, 1:08 AM
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Sandstone Yep, it seems that we do take differing approaches to the types of routes we TR solo... I don't have too many roof routes at any of my local areas so I just don't bother with TR solo on these.
I use my basic within the recommendations of the manufacturer and of course I'm vigilant, therefore it's perfect for my needs.
Your system appears to suit your needs well also.
I guess the answer to the OP's question has therefore been answered well: It depends on the style of route you will be climbing and what you are looking for in a self-belay device.
Job well done eh?
Andy All good points, I agree with you; all equipment is capable of failure in what appear to be normal circumstances, and this always needs to be taken into consideration.
But working within the recommendations of an established reputable company that has put it's liable ass on the line with a piece of equipment is probably the better side to err on.
Cheers all
Adam
edited to capitalise "Sandstone" :)
(This post was edited by ajkclay on Nov 9, 2007, 1:09 AM)
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angry
Nov 9, 2007, 1:14 AM
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I use a 1/2 death modified gri-gri. I cut half the flap off and rounded it over. The rope still can't get behind the handle, but it's smoother than normal.
I put a petzl basic ascender under it clipped to a sling, girthed to my harness.
I feel quite safe with the setup.
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ajkclay
Nov 9, 2007, 1:17 AM
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angry wrote: I use a 1/2 death modified gri-gri. I cut half the flap off and rounded it over. The rope still can't get behind the handle, but it's smoother than normal. I put a petzl basic ascender under it clipped to a sling, girthed to my harness. I feel quite safe with the setup.
 I bet your mother breathed a sigh of relief the day you said you were moving out...
Shit you're a funny bugger at times
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penguinator
Nov 9, 2007, 3:24 AM
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The only reason I will be soloing is to just pump out some miles on cracks by myself in order to get jamming totally wired. So I can pretty much expect there won't be any weird loading angles or wild maneuvers. Just jam up, come down, and repeat until I have it all wired.
From the looks of things, some people on here read that toothed ascenders MIGHT abrade your rope, and then lecture other people on it like it actually happened to them.
Has anyone actually had a frayed sheath from solo TOP ROPING using a toothed ascender? Personally? Not someone you heard about or a friends friends room-mate.
Financially, it is suitable for me just to use the handled ascenders I use for jugging on aid. I already have them, and for my purposes they seem entirely safe if I am using two redundant dynamic 10.5mm ropes, each with a handled ascender.
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ajkclay
Nov 9, 2007, 5:13 AM
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In reply to: Has anyone actually had a frayed sheath from solo TOP ROPING using a toothed ascender?
The Petzl data itself actually states that you only run the risk of sheath damage in a factor 1 fall (except with an 8mm rope) which means you'd have to fall the same distance as the amount of rope between you and the anchor... that's one heck of a fall in self belay terms, and a lot of not paying attention unless you're right near the top.
And trust me, most times, especially when you are starting out, you are very aware of the slack in your system because like every new climbing discipline you venture into, you're nervous as hell and monitoring everything. Your first (even tiny) drop/rest on self belay is scary because there's no belayer... it teaches you just how much you really do trust your climbing partner.
Are your ascenders the petzl ones? If so they are exactly the same as a basic except they have a handle. Two of them will be really really safe. One is all I use with a prissik sitting on top of it as a backup.
Don't spend any more money, your current gear will do fine. Make sure you place a 'biner through the top hole (around the rope) and you're set to go.
Here's the link for the Basic handbook, it's the same as the ascender one I think.
http://en.petzl.com/...ON%20B17502-F1_1.pdf
Oh, BTW if you have a long enough static you may want to use that... it's perfectly fine to do (petzl have data ion static use as well) and you'll appreciate it more when you want to rest then continue from your stopping point. A static will wear better because there's less abrasion over rock due to stretch as you weight/unweight. 
Cheers
Adam
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ajkclay
Nov 9, 2007, 5:24 AM
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angry wrote: ajkclay wrote: Shit you're a funny bugger at times When I want to be. But that's the exact setup I use. In fact, I used it multiple times today, on a route too hard for me to send clean. I fell on said setup multiple times as well. Honestly, the most sketch part of the day was the approach shoe free solo up the 5.8 to set the rope up.
ironic if it true, but I can never tell with you angry, you remind me of a classic quote from the original Bedazzled movie with Peter Cook and Dudley Moore:
Stanley: Oh please tell me what to believe!
Devil: Well not me Stanley, everything I've ever said is a lie, including that.
Stanley: What?
Devil: That everything I've ever said is a lie, that's not true.
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sandstone
Nov 9, 2007, 7:13 PM
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Petzl pretty clearly documents that use of their ascender for solo TR is based on the assumption that there is no slack in the system. That's the foundation the whole "house" is built on. To me that's a foundation of sand.
If you start with the assumption that slack can and will happen, you'll be building on a solid foundation.
Adam, the roof scenario I described did happen right at the top of the climb (roofs right at the top on southern sandstone are common). So it was a situation of an experienced climber, with everything rigged by the book, facing the potential of a near FF1 fall onto an ascender. Shit can and does happen, even when everything is done "right".
If you use a rig that can handle a dynamic load, you still have to be diligent about slack, but you have a much wider margin for error built into your belay. For me, that's the only way to go, and the only thing I could recommend to anyone else.
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