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gilthanass
Oct 24, 2002, 1:36 PM
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Alright, I am about to go and buy myself some quickdraws, but need to know things first. I have never used wiregates, but are they any good? I plan on doing sport for a while then quickly moving onto trad as soon as my budget alows. So the question is, do I get wiregate or standard? What are the differences? pro's and cons of each? Any help on this topic would be appreciated.
Steve
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petzl510
Oct 24, 2002, 1:48 PM
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Steve, I would suggest the wire gate because it is trasferrable to and from trad. hope this helps and be very careful when running trad
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palisades_rockjock
Oct 24, 2002, 1:53 PM
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Hey Steve,
I started out with standard BD enduros (non-wirgate), but I ended up changing the rope end of the quickdraw to wiregates. I feel that the rope falls into the wiregate biner much easier. In addition, I have had no problems with the rope coming out of the wiregate during a fall (I have heard that rumor so I thought I would share it with you). I fall a lot so I believe I have become sort of an expert!! Buy three standard and three wiregate and practice on a short route to see which you feel are best for you. Better yet, borrow someone else's gear.
later
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chimneysweeper
Oct 24, 2002, 2:13 PM
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Gilthanass,
Check out this topic posted a while back on the same issue:
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=13479&forum=40
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tradguy
Oct 24, 2002, 2:13 PM
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Get wiregates. I resisted for quite some time, thinking that the biners I had were great and fine, but after using various other people's wiregates and evaluating the pros/cons, I finally gave in and got some wiregates, and have loved it ever since.
Pros:
lighter overall biner weight
larger gate opening (makes it easier to clip)
less gate flutter (openning of the gate from movement of the biner)
greater clearance between the end of the gate and the basket (makes it easier to clip)
doesn't freeze up in snow/ice conditions
Cons:
not as good for openning beer bottles
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rodeomountain
Oct 24, 2002, 2:27 PM
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I have both and I like the standard better. To me it seems easier to clip into than the wire-gates. But I am comfortable climbing with either of them.
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geezergecko
Oct 24, 2002, 2:29 PM
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I would like to add that while wiregates are great for the rope end, keylock (notchless) biners (ie. Petzl Spirit, BD Positron) are a good idea on the hanger end since they won't snag on your gear loops.
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tradclmbr
Oct 24, 2002, 2:34 PM
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Both can be used for trad, so really it is a matter of personal preference (im not sure what the second poster meant!). But wire gates are much easier to clip......I say that owning 3 wiregate draws and the rest bent gate standard draws......wire gates are really noticeably easier to clip (some time the difference between ah and ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh)
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punk
Oct 24, 2002, 2:52 PM
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I have both
For Alpine and Ice go wire (Neutrino, Trango lightweight-II, WC ascend, Hotwire, omega iso4 )
For trad and aid go Keylock (Pretzel spirit, and BD positron or the Kong)
For locking (all keylock Pretzel and Kong with the BD Enduro for their size (the smallest KL I have found))
This is what I found to work for me …I Know, I know Im a gear ho
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tradklime
Oct 24, 2002, 4:29 PM
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I will second what was said above. The best set up in my opinion is a keylock biner for the bolt end and a wire gate for the rope end.
Key locks are great for not snagging on your gear loops or the bolt hangers (very nice when cleaning draws off an overhanging sport route). Wire gates reduce gate flutter. Although biner breakage is rare, with the inrease in falls during sport climbing, just another margine of safety.
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tcollins
Oct 24, 2002, 4:47 PM
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Recently I put together a few draws made of BD Hotwires for the rope end and Petzl Spirit straight gates for the hanger end. I love them. They feel great and are super lite.
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wlderdude
Oct 24, 2002, 5:00 PM
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Yeah, the mix and match advice is good.
I bought a bunch of Omegalite quickdraws and I find I don't like them much. They snag like crazzy, won't fit in my clipstick and don't clip easily on a long reach. I wish I hadn't bought 8 of them. I find myself wanting to relpace all my draws with keylocks.
I think Kong's keylocks are the best biner for your money. You will need to find what you like best.
By the way, wiregates (at least the Stubais that I have) work very nicely in the clip stick since the gate gets held open better.
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darkside
Oct 24, 2002, 5:12 PM
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Steve PM'd me on this and here is my reply to him
Quote:Many people shy away from wires as counter-intuitive. The idea of the rope running over a little bit of wire can be unnerving. To help you understand let's look at some of the advantages.
*Wires are lighter- this may not be too important in itself if just for a sport rack but when that sport rack grows into a large trad rack or big wall rack, saving a few grams per biner may make a difference to your pack.
*Gate flutter- This is one of the main advantages of wires. When a biner is loaded in a fall, the twang it experiences may be able to flick the gate open. Open gate strength is significantly less than closed gate so leading to unexpected biner failure. The reason wires are better in this area is that the gate has less mass therefore less chance of momentum opening the gate. You can simulate this phenomenen by taking a biner and slapping the spine against your palm or thigh. A regular gate you will hear a snap as the gate continues to move after the rest of the biner stops, then the gate spring snaps it back in place. With a wire, less mass in the gate = less momentum = less chance of the gate 'fluttering'. The other danger with this is having the rope fall out of the biner in the instant the gate is open. This can happen even if it seems unlikely. I once watched a TR'er take a fall on a vertical climb. As he fell during a dynamic move, the rope flipped the two locking biners into a cross loaded position and then ran across the gates. Fortunately for the climber, the two were opposed, so as the sleeve on one was opened the other remained firmly closed. Their setup was good and there was nothing unsafe in the way they were climbing so this was an important lesson to me on how unexpected forces can come into play. (also on the wisdom of opposing biners and redundancy).
*Straight, bent, wires- normally one would use a straight gate on the pro or hanger end of a quickdraw and a bent gate on the rope end to facilitate easier clipping. Not having any wires to experiment clipping, I cannot comment on the ease of clipping a wire. It may be that bent gates are easier. Not too much of an issue until you are pumped, at a bad stance, and fumbling to get the rope clipped before you sketch out it will happen to you. some newer wires have a curved spine to help with this I think. Note- a bent gate increases the chance of a rope unclipping itself over a straight gate when the rope passes the gate in a fall. This is part of the issue with back-clipping.
*Cost- Wires cost more. If cost is an issue then you may want to go with bent gates. My preference in bent gates is the DMM Eclipse because of it's huge open gate size, makes for easier clips when fumbling. I see little advantage in a wire gate for clipping a hanger/pro other than weight and given that you need to identify the rope end from the hanger end, the two could get mixed up. I assume you know a biner used for clipping a hanger can develop burrs that could feasibly damage a rope, therefore the two ends of a quickdraw should be dedicated to either rope or hanger.
I hope this helps show some of the issues involved and thereby help you decide. The better informed you are, the better your decision will be. There is no right or wrong choice here, just a more appropriate one for you. Another idea is to start with a couple of each and see which you prefer before buying more.
Some nice points on the keylock for the hanger/pro end from folks above. I don't think they were common if even available when I bought my draws. Not essential but worth considering.
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rocks4jules
Oct 24, 2002, 5:23 PM
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Love my wire gates!
Jules
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byrdherd
Oct 24, 2002, 5:26 PM
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I recomend the wire gate 100 % they are lighter and easyer to clip, I went and bought some wire gate just to replace all the bent ones in my set
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climbingfoo
Oct 24, 2002, 5:29 PM
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Another vote for wire gates.
- lighter
- almost no gate fluter
- so are rated stronger across the backbone of the biner
- have used wiregates over 3+ years without problems
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tradguy
Oct 24, 2002, 5:34 PM
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Wiregates, just like standard gates, vary between manufacturers, styles, and even manufacturing lots of the same style biner, so making a universal statement that wiregates are easier or harder to clip than standard straight gates or bent gates isn't really accurate. I've seen nice, easy, smooth wires as well as standard bent gates. The greater clearances of wiregates can make things somewhat easier in terms of fitting the volume of rope and finger through the gate, but gate action itself varies too much to make a blanket statement.
That said, some manufacturers (wild country for example) make wiregates with certain bends in the wire that seem to make clipping easier.
At to the matter of keylocks, I personally have never had issue with the gate hook getting caught on things. But if it's that big of a deal to you, get the DMM wirelock biners - best of both worlds. Very smooth, sweet biner, but a bit pricey.
Me? My new favorite quickdraws have a BD Neutrino for the bolt end, Wild Country Wildwire for the rope end, and WC dyneema draw between, for a total weight of 89 grams, or just over 3 ounces. They rock, and man, they're so light.
[ This Message was edited by: tradguy on 2002-10-24 11:07 ]
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gilthanass
Oct 24, 2002, 7:27 PM
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thanx for all the advice, I plan on going to MEC (local climbing store) and making the sales clerks life a living hell . "alright, now I want to try a positron on the top with a neutrino on the bottom" hehe, I am going to be there for hours trying out different quickdraw combinations .
Steve
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punk
Oct 24, 2002, 7:41 PM
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Hey Steve,
Nothing wrong with the idea of the combo above ...But...for the bottom wire try something bigger then the neutrino like WC bigwire (the ultimate) or the hotwire but if looking for full size in secant 37g a biner try the Trango lightweight-II
IMO the Neutrino are TOO small for facilitate quick clip
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tcollins
Oct 24, 2002, 8:02 PM
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I agree with Punk. I have big hands and feel the Hotwire is much easier to use. It doen't get lost in my hand as easy as the Neutrino did.
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freudian
Oct 27, 2002, 7:44 PM
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Steve:
My quickdraws:
qty brand ropegate pro/hanger-gate
003 BD Wire straight
001 OP Wire straight
002 OP Straight straight
Draws I've been borrowing this season:
qty brand ropegate pro/hanger-gate
005 CLOG Bent straight
I prefer the BD Wire/Straight combination. They are lighter, the wiregate makes for really easy clipping into the rope, and the biners are small, so they're neater on my wrack and easier for my thin fingers to get a hold of.
The OP Wire/Straight combo is okay, but the biners are too large and the wiregate is TOO easy to clip IMO (Im scared it will open when I don't want it to).
The OP Staraight/Straight combo -- this is cause of a Christmas Present gone wrong. I had to remove a biner from each of two draws and replace em with with straights that I had for hanging my cams on. These work okay but I prefer the BD Wire/straight.
The CLOG Bent/Straight combination is also quite good as the biners are small and easy to handle... but I have an easier time cliping with the BD Wire/Straight.
***
Why do I like the Wire/Straight? It is because that's what they had @ MEC when I went to HFX and I seem to like em. I rather have the straight than a wire on the pro end. I think a wire on a hanger might be easier to clip, though. If you plan on doing a lot of Sport, then maybe get fully wire...
Andrew
[ This Message was edited by: freudian on 2002-10-27 11:54 ]
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ouflyboy9
Oct 28, 2002, 3:03 AM
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wire gates won't open if the spine of the biner is slammed against something hard..if you don't believe me try it..get wire gates
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bouldertoad
Oct 28, 2002, 4:04 AM
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Just another vote for the wire gates. I currently am climbing with positron straights for my piece attachment point and the quickwire for the rope end.
The advice on getting multiple sizes is a good one especially if you plan on getting into trad climbing at some point. I have about 8 1foot runners and 5 or so three footers tripled that i can use for trad or sport. I hate those short 6" draws, they seem so one-dimesional to me.
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edgelounger
Oct 28, 2002, 6:49 PM
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wire gates and pretzel spirts
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stevematthys
Oct 28, 2002, 7:00 PM
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i had bd quickwires, but i have since replaced all the biners will petzl spirit biners
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