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silascl
Mar 7, 2008, 7:37 PM
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I've climbed outdoors a few times and know the basics. I've lead belayed, set up some basic anchors using slings and webbing, and lead some climbs. The place I'm climbing this weekend has some longer leads that require a walk off (or a 2-rope rap, but I'd rather walk off). Since I'll be leading, my partner will probably be cleaning, but I've never belayed a second from the top of a route.
I looked up how to do this in my how to rock climb book, and I kind of get it but it's a brief section and there are no diagrams. I'm picturing a basic anchor off two bolts, clip my ATC into the powerpoint, pull up the rope so it's more or less taut on the climber, clip it into the ATC, and belay more or less like a TR. I did some searching and it seems like I should keep my brake hand up and the load rope down, is this correct? I'll be clipped into the anchor via a personal anchor system. Should I be sitting behind the anchor or right next to it on the edge of a cliff?
Anybody have a photo or diagram of how this should look? I understand all the principles but can't quite picture it. Before you all tell me I should get some instruction and I'm going to die, my partner is experienced and can show me this weekend, I'd just like to understand first.
Thanks!
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epoch
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Mar 7, 2008, 7:43 PM
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You'll get it once your partner shows you.
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swaghole
Mar 7, 2008, 7:56 PM
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There was a post about the same thing last week. Try searching - there was some good stuff.
Basically, you can belay directly from the anchor's powerpoint if you use a grigri, ATC Guide, Reverso or Munter hitch. You can also belay from your harness using the powerpoint as a redirect. Depending on the situation, this method can be a little akward.
The Pezl website has a nice video on belaying a second from above from directly from the anchor's powerpoint
http://en.petzl.com/.../REVERSO/reverso.htm
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silascl
Mar 7, 2008, 8:10 PM
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Very helpful.
I think I'll pick that book up, the John long stuff doesn't have enough real pictures, I have a hard time going from the illustrations to reality.
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silascl
Mar 7, 2008, 8:14 PM
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swaghole wrote: There was a post about the same thing last week. Try searching - there was some good stuff. Basically, you can belay directly from the anchor's powerpoint if you use a grigri, ATC Guide, Reverso or Munter hitch. You can also belay from your harness using the powerpoint as a redirect. Depending on the situation, this method can be a little akward. The Pezl website has a nice video on belaying a second from above from directly from the anchor's powerpoint http://en.petzl.com/.../REVERSO/reverso.htm
Did a search but didn't come up with what I wanted. Thanks for letting me know about the recent thread, I found it and cracklover answered all my questions here:http://www.rockclimbing.com/...post=1830543#1830543
Since I'll be in a situation akin to belaying off the top of a jtree dome, I think a redirect makes the most sense. On top of that I can use my ATC normally, as I don't have an autolocking device and although I've set up a munter before I'm not entirely comfortable with it.
Thanks a lot guys.
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cracklover
Mar 7, 2008, 8:26 PM
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Happy to help! I'm always psyched when I put a little thought into a post and it actually gets referenced after the fact, rather than folks having to have the same thing explained over and over. Encourages me to get it right.
GO
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reg
Mar 7, 2008, 8:43 PM
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if you use a re-direct - ya might want a piece below for upward pull - attached to your belay loop - to keep you from rising into the anchor if your not sitting fully in the harness or for weight differences between climbers. I would prefer an autoblock in your situation. I think the autoblocks - like a reverso or guide - are best for this application. just rig your release and back it with a munter from your belay loop, in case you have to lower for any reason during cleaning.
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jt512
Mar 7, 2008, 8:50 PM
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silascl wrote: I've climbed outdoors a few times and know the basics. I've lead belayed, set up some basic anchors using slings and webbing, and lead some climbs. The place I'm climbing this weekend has some longer leads that require a walk off (or a 2-rope rap, but I'd rather walk off). Since I'll be leading, my partner will probably be cleaning, but I've never belayed a second from the top of a route. I looked up how to do this in my how to rock climb book, and I kind of get it but it's a brief section and there are no diagrams. I'm picturing a basic anchor off two bolts, clip my ATC into the powerpoint...
NO! Belaying with the belay device clipped to the anchor is called a direct belay. As someone else said, bringing the second up with a direct belay is fine with a grigri or a munter hitch, but NOT with an ATC. Why? Because with an ATC the brake strand of the rope will have to be pulled upward for braking, which at best will be awkward, and at worst dangerous. Clip the ATC to your belay loop (safe - the braking direction will be upward, but with the belay device on your harness, you can do it - but uncomfortable if the second needs to hang), or else redirect the second's rope through the anchor, so that if he hangs, the anchor, not your kidneys, takes his weight. With a redirect, the pull on you will be upward, so the braking direction will be downward. Can you visualize this?
Jay
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silascl
Mar 7, 2008, 9:24 PM
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Jay,
This makes sense to me. If the anchor is sufficiently low (like waist high) wouldn't a direct belay with an ATC be somewhat similar to a redirect in terms of the angle for braking? Regardless, I won't be trying this.
The redirect and upward pull make sense, but for this situation I'll be most comfortable sitting on the ledge and facing my climber. For that reason a redirect seems like a poorer solution than a direct belay off my harness.
Edit: I'm also not too worried about hanging, these are mostly easy climbs. I haven't lead anything at my limit outdoors yet.
(This post was edited by silascl on Mar 7, 2008, 9:28 PM)
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yokese
Mar 7, 2008, 9:52 PM
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jt512 wrote: Clip the ATC to your belay loop (safe - the braking direction will be upward, but with the belay device on your harness, you can do it - but uncomfortable if the second needs to hang),
I know that you know when this method is more appropriate. I've never belayed that way*, except in some snow slopes with only one T-anchor. Usually, the anchors I use are solid enough for a direct belay (my preferred method, generally using a Gigi plate) or a redirect, although I've certainly seen people belaying directly from the harness, even in some situations that, IMO, it's not convenient.
Just to add my 2 cents, I remember having read in one of the books of Pit Schubert that this way is not recommended because, as you mentioned, the belayer will receive a downward load on the hips and may lose his balance and control of the rope and, in addition, in case of sudden fall of the second the instinctive reaction is often to pull the break hand down, not up.
Edited because I've just realized that I have indeed belayed that way, and actually many times, from the top of some short boulders protected with just one nut or cam... for some reason I just thought about multipitch routes when I wrote my post  . Well, it's Friday.
(This post was edited by yokese on Mar 7, 2008, 11:46 PM)
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AlexCV
Mar 7, 2008, 10:54 PM
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Go to the store, pick up an ATC Guide. Read the manual. Never look back. It's (currently) the best device for the job, in a few weeks the Reverso3 will be available and that'll be good too.
A gigi could work, they're findable for less then 10$, but it's not really good for anything but belaying a second (the friction however is high and hard to modulate).
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