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Vertical rescue problem
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Gmburns2000


Aug 20, 2008, 6:59 PM
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Re: [skinner] Vertical rescue problem [In reply to]
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skinner wrote:
epoch wrote:
I am 98% certain that it is not majid.

I agree,.. if it was majid, there would be all sorts of etch-a-sketch type drawings to accompany an explanation that would involve unraveling your socks, and using the strands to knit some sort of auto-locking ascender.
Standard SAR stuff of course,
Wink

Well, not if he was trying to not be discovered. The real question is why would majid use his own techniques under a different username when he could use his own? I'm betting it is someone else trying to behave like him, but they failed because the whole purpose of a different identity is to not be yourself.


stymingersfink


Aug 20, 2008, 7:14 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Vertical rescue problem [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
stymingersfink wrote:
j_ung wrote:
The question is about passing a knot with the weight of two people. I'm not sure why you're convinced rapping off the ends of ropes is the OP's issue.

Do I know you?
That's the $64K question, isn't it?

Not any more it isn't. aceto = majid_sabet. I am 100% certain of this. Or did you pretty much already figure that out? Wink
at first aceto kind of annoyed me, though after someone pointed out that he has more than 2x majidiot's brain power and was pulling some decent trolls, I started paying a little more attention.

Now the question remains.. who's gonna claim it (not that it really matters, i guess).

'course, sometimes tis better to remain a mystery, such that the occasional return would be sweetly anticipated, rather than talked about in a "remember when" kind of way that I wish we could all use when talking of majidiot.


stymingersfink


Aug 20, 2008, 7:25 PM
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Re: [marde] Vertical rescue problem [In reply to]
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marde wrote:
Easiest way is I think to lower the rescuer.
Use a munter hitch for that and connect the ropes with a edk.
The edk passes through the munter.
Um, really?!?


AlexCV


Aug 20, 2008, 7:38 PM
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Re: [runnit] Vertical rescue problem [In reply to]
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Do like the pros and use a 600ft. spool of NFPA rated rope. It should be long enough that you don't need a knot.


acorneau


Aug 20, 2008, 8:16 PM
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Re: [runnit] Vertical rescue problem [In reply to]
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runnit wrote:
... you can rap down to them and then reach the ground, but you will need to do at least one knot bypass in order to get them down. ... The rescuer will be at the top of the cliff on the exit point with what ever gear is needed.

I'd take a large steel locking master biner, to this connect a load-releasing hitch system to a rap device that will hold two people. Also add a second rap device/biner to the master biner, then connect this rig to the rescuer. Add the needed slings/biners for connecting the victim to the master biner.

Rap down to the victim (using the rap device with the LRH), connect him to the rig at the master biner. Rap down to the knot, lock off the rap device, attach the second rap device below the knot and lock it off. Release the LRH then disconnect the first rap device. If the first is out of reach, just leave it because you'll get it back when you pull the rope from the top. Done.


trenchdigger


Aug 20, 2008, 9:52 PM
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Re: [epoch] Vertical rescue problem [In reply to]
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epoch wrote:
[opinion]

A Load Releasable Hitch - Mariner knot - is a tool that is often used in rescue applications because it provides redundant control. I think people are confused with the mule knot methodology and how it would be employed in this situation.

Passing a knot is passing a knot regardless of the situation.

Runnit, you already answered the question in your post. Your mention of using a 6mm chord makes you uncomfortable. Why are you not then using an 8mm chord instead? My knowledge of rescue systems is a bit rusted, having not used them for some time, but it seems prudent to maintain the beefieness and overkill that is found throughout the SAR communities in the US. I assume that you already understand and practice the standard method of passing a knot under tension. Why not then beef up your system to be stronger?

Also, if you are in that situation, it might be easier and better controlled if you were lowered into the scene, leaving the knot passing to a belay crew at the top of the cliff. This would allow you to maintain control of your victim and allow you to have two hands free to attend to thier needs.

[/opinion]

There are a number of options for load releasing hitches. The Mariner's is one of them. In a properly tied Mariner's, the load will be distributed over at least 4 strands of the cord. If you're still concerned about strength, you could add additional wraps between carabiners for greater control and strength.

Another option is a radium release hitch which would distribute the load over at least 3 strands with a munter to help control the release. Perhaps that's what others were thinking of when mentioning the munter-mule?

The Radium Release Hitch...


There are, of course other options given different available gear and manpower...


trenchdigger


Aug 20, 2008, 9:54 PM
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Re: [stymingersfink] Vertical rescue problem [In reply to]
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stymingersfink wrote:
marde wrote:
Easiest way is I think to lower the rescuer.
Use a munter hitch for that and connect the ropes with a edk.
The edk passes through the munter.
Um, really?!?

Now that would be fun to watch...


stymingersfink


Aug 20, 2008, 10:03 PM
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Re: [trenchdigger] Vertical rescue problem [In reply to]
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trenchdigger wrote:
stymingersfink wrote:
marde wrote:
Easiest way is I think to lower the rescuer.
Use a munter hitch for that and connect the ropes with a edk.
The edk passes through the munter.
Um, really?!?

Now that would be fun to watch...
troo, but rather frustrating to have read and filed away for later use, especially without access to the intarweb to inquire WTF to do next!


marde


Aug 21, 2008, 10:35 AM
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Re: [stymingersfink] Vertical rescue problem [In reply to]
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stymingersfink wrote:
marde wrote:
Easiest way is I think to lower the rescuer.
Use a munter hitch for that and connect the ropes with a edk.
The edk passes through the munter.
Um, really?!?

really
I've done it several times.
Like lowering my partner and haulbag two pitches down that way.

edit: how do i get that pic in here??


(This post was edited by marde on Aug 21, 2008, 12:32 PM)
Attachments: pic1.jpg (92.6 KB)


rightarmbad


Aug 21, 2008, 2:14 PM
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Re: [marde] Vertical rescue problem [In reply to]
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Wow, I'm gonna go try that, could be really useful!


stymingersfink


Aug 21, 2008, 2:40 PM
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Re: [rightarmbad] Vertical rescue problem [In reply to]
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rightarmbad wrote:
Wow, I'm gonna go try that, could be really useful!
you're still gonna have to un-weight the rope, then lower yourself back down to the now-lowe rmunter hitch. the only step you're removing is the "remove belay device and re-set the device under the knot" step,

It's impossible to use that technique to pass the knot on a weighted rope, obviously.


marde


Aug 21, 2008, 2:43 PM
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Re: [rightarmbad] Vertical rescue problem [In reply to]
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as you want to pass a knot while rapelling this is a possibility (using a long cord with a munter muleand a prussik)
Attachments: pic3.jpg (75.8 KB)


Partner epoch
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Aug 21, 2008, 3:06 PM
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Re: [marde] Vertical rescue problem [In reply to]
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marde wrote:
as you want to pass a knot while rapelling this is a possibility (using a long cord with a munter muleand a prussik)
Your diagrams, though pretty and blatently not yours, are not within industry standard for passing a knot in a rescue situation.


marde


Aug 21, 2008, 3:15 PM
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Re: [epoch] Vertical rescue problem [In reply to]
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its from a book from the swiss alpin club published in 2006.
I don't think that it's outdated.
But I guess things are tought different in different places.

edit:
http://www.bergwacht-bayern.org/...lagen_Streibel_1.pdf
page 3 picture 16


(This post was edited by marde on Aug 21, 2008, 3:30 PM)


marde


Aug 21, 2008, 3:19 PM
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Re: [stymingersfink] Vertical rescue problem [In reply to]
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stymingersfink wrote:
...
It's impossible to use that technique to pass the knot on a weighted rope, obviously.

sorry but that's wrong. (at least as long as we're talkin aout lowering someone)
It works that way.


(This post was edited by marde on Aug 21, 2008, 3:20 PM)


stymingersfink


Aug 21, 2008, 3:47 PM
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Re: [marde] Vertical rescue problem [In reply to]
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marde wrote:
stymingersfink wrote:
...
It's impossible to use that technique to pass the knot on a weighted rope, obviously.

sorry but that's wrong. (at least as long as we're talkin aout lowering someone)
It works that way.
I'll concede it's a nice little technique, not one I'd use with multiples of body-weight however.


marde


Aug 21, 2008, 3:50 PM
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Re: [stymingersfink] Vertical rescue problem [In reply to]
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Yes it might be problem depending on the weight of the bodies and the ropes diameters.
Fatter ropes are easier to control in my opinion.


stymingersfink


Aug 21, 2008, 3:52 PM
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pass the salt, please?


trenchdigger


Aug 21, 2008, 4:16 PM
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Re: [marde] Vertical rescue problem [In reply to]
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marde wrote:
Yes it might be problem depending on the weight of the bodies and the ropes diameters.
Fatter ropes are easier to control in my opinion.

On the other hand, fatter ropes may preclude the knot from passing through the carabiner.

As far as a two person load goes, I wonder if the knot would still pass through a double-wrapped munter ("monster" munter as some like to call it). Doesn't seem like it would work very well.


marde


Aug 21, 2008, 4:23 PM
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Re: [trenchdigger] Vertical rescue problem [In reply to]
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No, it won't pass through a double munter.
(described in that pdf file as well, sorry only found it in german)
The fat rope is usually no problem as long as you use a hms biner, possibly the biggest one you have.
It works with a normal hms quite good, but I haven't tried the extremely small hms biners available nowadays.


moose_droppings


Aug 21, 2008, 5:25 PM
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Re: [marde] Vertical rescue problem [In reply to]
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marde wrote:
as you want to pass a knot while rapelling this is a possibility (using a long cord with a munter muleand a prussik)


This is getting way to complicated.
Simple is safer.


runnit


Sep 11, 2008, 2:18 AM
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Re: [moose_droppings] Vertical rescue problem [In reply to]
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moose_droppings wrote:

This is getting way to complicated.
Simple is safer.

You're telling me Wink

Anyway, thanks to everyone for the (on topic) replies. It's been an interesting bit of research.

Based on everything I've been able to gather from a range of sources, I've got 3 different solutions that I'd be happy to play with depending on the situation.

A.
If we have radios, the most experienced person stays up the top and lowers someone else tied into the end of the rope (like lowering a top belay) down to the casualty so the knot bypassing can be taken care of from the top of the cliff and the rescuer just has to connect the casualty and help them down. Comms between the rescuer and the top is essential.

B.
If the casualty isn't badly hurt and can help out, the rescuer raps down and ties off, sets up a belay on the rescue line and lowers the casualty on the end of the rope, taking care of the bypasses from where he's hanging as he lowers. That way he's only got to deal with the weight/complications of one person at a time. The casualty will have to be able to fend off the wall themselves and sort themselves out at the bottom (ideally having someone else meet them down there).

C.
Worst case, the rescuer raps down to the casualty and lowers with them. I'm thinking the best way to manage all of the different attachments is to use one biner/figure 8 as the focal pt which everything else gets attached to (cow tails, belay devices, prussics etc). The casualty would be attached by girth hitching a sling from each shoulder and connecting them with a biner (that would then be clipped into the focal pt) so they naturally sit in their parachute harness.

To bypass the knots, stop rapping a couple metres above the knot, fix a sling above the belay device with an autoblock, tie a figure 8 on a bite below the knot and connect it to the tails of the autoblock. Connect a 2nd device below the knot to the focal pt and rap down the slack between the sling and the knot until the 2nd belay is loaded up. This saves stuffing around with prussics and I think that it's easier to make sure you're always correctly attached to the rope.

If I did have to use a prussic for some reason, I'd attach it to the rope above the 1st belay device and tie a munter-mule to the focal pt to lower on to the 2nd device. I'd definitely have a back up figure 8 on a bite below the 2nd device too, but connecting the back up to focal pt gets a bit messy and means you've got the potential for shock loading with metal on metal (biner on focal pt).

Using an autoblock off your leg loop as a back up brake is a given.

Thoughts?

Now I've got a plan, hopefully i won't need to use it this weekend.

BJ


majid_sabet


Sep 11, 2008, 3:57 AM
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Re: [runnit] Vertical rescue problem [In reply to]
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runnit wrote:
moose_droppings wrote:

This is getting way to complicated.
Simple is safer.

You're telling me Wink

Anyway, thanks to everyone for the (on topic) replies. It's been an interesting bit of research.

Based on everything I've been able to gather from a range of sources, I've got 3 different solutions that I'd be happy to play with depending on the situation.

A.
If we have radios, the most experienced person stays up the top and lowers someone else tied into the end of the rope (like lowering a top belay) down to the casualty so the knot bypassing can be taken care of from the top of the cliff and the rescuer just has to connect the casualty and help them down. Comms between the rescuer and the top is essential.

B.
If the casualty isn't badly hurt and can help out, the rescuer raps down and ties off, sets up a belay on the rescue line and lowers the casualty on the end of the rope, taking care of the bypasses from where he's hanging as he lowers. That way he's only got to deal with the weight/complications of one person at a time. The casualty will have to be able to fend off the wall themselves and sort themselves out at the bottom (ideally having someone else meet them down there).

C.
Worst case, the rescuer raps down to the casualty and lowers with them. I'm thinking the best way to manage all of the different attachments is to use one biner/figure 8 as the focal pt which everything else gets attached to (cow tails, belay devices, prussics etc). The casualty would be attached by girth hitching a sling from each shoulder and connecting them with a biner (that would then be clipped into the focal pt) so they naturally sit in their parachute harness.

To bypass the knots, stop rapping a couple metres above the knot, fix a sling above the belay device with an autoblock, tie a figure 8 on a bite below the knot and connect it to the tails of the autoblock. Connect a 2nd device below the knot to the focal pt and rap down the slack between the sling and the knot until the 2nd belay is loaded up. This saves stuffing around with prussics and I think that it's easier to make sure you're always correctly attached to the rope.

If I did have to use a prussic for some reason, I'd attach it to the rope above the 1st belay device and tie a munter-mule to the focal pt to lower on to the 2nd device. I'd definitely have a back up figure 8 on a bite below the 2nd device too, but connecting the back up to focal pt gets a bit messy and means you've got the potential for shock loading with metal on metal (biner on focal pt).

Using an autoblock off your leg loop as a back up brake is a given.

Thoughts?

Now I've got a plan, hopefully i won't need to use it this weekend.

BJ

Ok BJ, he is stuck in the middle of this wall and you are 330 m above as shown. by the way, its 4:45 pm in Nov 10, and diving dude says; he loosing his sensation on & off on both legs but mainly, he is feeling little dizzy but nothing is broken nor he is bleeding. what is your plan ?


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