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Dodgy_Lurker
Aug 30, 2008, 4:52 PM
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Trust me I've searched about this.
Now, I have TR solo'd with a GriGri a fair bit, and those who have tried that will know how much of a ball ache it is to continually feed rope through.
So time for a better device. I only plan to TR solo as Lead solo is a bit too balsy for me and when I hit the crag it's always with mates. I work at a climbing gym so TR solo is very available to me.
Now, my main desire is to wear a device that feeds nicely and catches falls without a long run out.
I know that the Silent Partner and Soloist will work, but I'm unsure as to which is 'best' for TR solo.
Anyone know which feeds the easiest?
I'm not worried about the Soloists inability to catch head first falls as I'm TRing and will bear that limitation in mind. I also have a chest harness so no worries there.
I'm a cheap bastard but can stretch to paying for the Silent Partner. The SP also looks like it might take a while to engage in a fall as it has to flip to an upright position before catching you (a difference of like a foot of slack but still).
I keep switching between which to get, and just wish I could try both out first. Anyone tried both for solo TR?
Thanks!
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shockabuku
Aug 30, 2008, 5:11 PM
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The Silent Partner is not the right tool for TR solo. It's very bulky, expensive, and there are other devices much more well designed for the task. I haven't tried the Soloist.
Look at the microcender (Petzl). It's relatively cheap and works very well. Feeds very smoothly with just a little weight on the end of the rope (I usually just use the excess in a coil suspended off the ground) and catches very quickly. No teeth on the cam and is pretty simple to hook up. You do need another device to rap back down however.
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MikeSaint
Aug 30, 2008, 7:01 PM
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On occasion I have used a Soloist to do top rope soloing (indoors and outdoors). I have found the device to work well with no real complaints. Research into the chest harness and inverted fall possibility before purchasing.
Another thing to consider is how you will get down from the climb.
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Tipton
Aug 30, 2008, 9:13 PM
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Microcender is definitely where it is at. You can't beat the self feeding of the microcender and it won't damage the rope. I am a hardcore advocate of it. The only thing that sucks is having to 'escape' from it to rap back down. This isn't a major issue, just not as convenient as pulling a grigri handle.
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coolcat83
Aug 30, 2008, 9:23 PM
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Tipton wrote: Microcender is definitely where it is at. You can't beat the self feeding of the microcender and it won't damage the rope. I am a hardcore advocate of it. The only thing that sucks is having to 'escape' from it to rap back down. This isn't a major issue, just not as convenient as pulling a grigri handle.
I'll third the microcender, just got one and works like charm, as for the "escape" it's really not that hard once you practice a couple times.
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moose_droppings
Aug 30, 2008, 11:16 PM
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Dodgy_Lurker wrote: Trust me I've searched about this. Now, I have TR solo'd with a GriGri a fair bit, and those who have tried that will know how much of a ball ache it is to continually feed rope through. So time for a better device. I only plan to TR solo as Lead solo is a bit too balsy for me and when I hit the crag it's always with mates. I work at a climbing gym so TR solo is very available to me. Now, my main desire is to wear a device that feeds nicely and catches falls without a long run out. I know that the Silent Partner and Soloist will work, but I'm unsure as to which is 'best' for TR solo. Anyone know which feeds the easiest? I'm not worried about the Soloists inability to catch head first falls as I'm TRing and will bear that limitation in mind. I also have a chest harness so no worries there. I'm a cheap bastard but can stretch to paying for the Silent Partner. The SP also looks like it might take a while to engage in a fall as it has to flip to an upright position before catching you (a difference of like a foot of slack but still). I keep switching between which to get, and just wish I could try both out first. Anyone tried both for solo TR? Thanks!
Skip either one of those for a Petzl rescucender or microcender. They feed easily and catch at the first hint of moving backwards through the rope.
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jmeizis
Aug 30, 2008, 11:21 PM
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You could just suck it up and use the gri-gri. It's not that bad to feed through. Especially if you're trying to be frugal as you say because it sounds like you already have one.
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Dodgy_Lurker
Aug 31, 2008, 3:27 AM
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> The Silent Partner is not the right tool for TR solo.
After having read more, this is the impression I get too. I think for solo TR the soloist is the better of the two.
> You could just suck it up and use the gri-gri.
> It's not that bad to feed through. Especially
> if you're trying to be frugal
The GriGri really sucks though. I was route setting today and it was such a hassle. I'm frugal (read: tight as a gnats arse) but I can cough up a $100.
> Microcender is definitely where it is at.
Hmmm... is that a 'safe' use of it? (yes, yes, nothing is truly safe in solo, etc) I've never physically played with one and cant find any images online of the guts of the thing. I read that it's 'ribbed' though (Giggidy) - does this have the potential to sheath the rope at all?
I don't mind the idea of using a chest harness (As I own one) and I like how the soloist is therefore orientated ready for action whilst a Microcender or equivalent will hang a bit.
I think I'm leaning towards the soloist then, as it's only a bit more $ than a microcender and in theory built for the purpose of soloing.
Maybe.
Thanks for the information so far though!
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Dodgy_Lurker
Aug 31, 2008, 3:34 AM
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I saw that thread, and was interested in the hot chick, sorry, I mean in the use of two Mini Traxions. I'm not hyper keen though as:
A) they are (where I live) $60ish each thus two of 'em is more expensive than a soloist
B) Got spiky bits that might shag the rope (only one thing worse than damaging your own ropes is damaging your ex-pro boxer boss's ropes)
C) realizing that the first shot of the chick in that thread makes her look hot, whilst the later photo is a let down)
Thanks!
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moose_droppings
Aug 31, 2008, 3:57 AM
Post #11 of 28
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Dodgy_Lurker wrote: After having read more, this is the impression I get too. I think for solo TR the soloist is the better of the two.
The Soloist was made for lead soloing. Rope feeding through the device on TR'ing isn't very smooth in my experiences.
Dodgy_Lurker wrote: Hmmm... is that a 'safe' use of it? (yes, yes, nothing is truly safe in solo, etc) I've never physically played with one and cant find any images online of the guts of the thing. I read that it's 'ribbed' though (Giggidy) - does this have the potential to sheath the rope at all?
Yes it is totally safe and it will not rip your sheath.
Honestly, it's the best thing going for plain ole TR soloing. Feeds like a hot knife through butter and catches instantly and safely.
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coolcat83
Aug 31, 2008, 5:24 AM
Post #12 of 28
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moose_droppings wrote: Dodgy_Lurker wrote: After having read more, this is the impression I get too. I think for solo TR the soloist is the better of the two. The Soloist was made for lead soloing. Rope feeding through the device on TR'ing isn't very smooth in my experiences. Dodgy_Lurker wrote: Hmmm... is that a 'safe' use of it? (yes, yes, nothing is truly safe in solo, etc) I've never physically played with one and cant find any images online of the guts of the thing. I read that it's 'ribbed' though (Giggidy) - does this have the potential to sheath the rope at all? Yes it is totally safe and it will not rip your sheath. Honestly, it's the best thing going for plain ole TR soloing. Feeds like a hot knife through butter and catches instantly and safely.
actually petzl says on their site, "Intended for moving on fixed ropes (as a back-up belay)" so basically made for catching on a rope with little slack as you have with a tr.
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irregularpanda
Aug 31, 2008, 6:04 AM
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Dodgy_Lurker wrote: Trust me I've searched about this. I keep switching between which to get, and just wish I could try both out first. Anyone tried both for solo TR? Thanks!
I believe you. I've searched it too.
I do this: One rope, rabbit eared figure 8 know up top.
microcender above a minitraxion. Tend both devices intelligently.
Done.
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Dodgy_Lurker
Aug 31, 2008, 5:03 PM
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irregularpanda wrote: I do this: One rope, rabbit eared figure 8 know up top. microcender above a minitraxion. Tend both devices intelligently. Done.
Well I think I've changed my mind 3 times in as many days and like the look of the double Mini Traxion setup.
Now irregularpanda, why use a "microcender above a minitraxion" setup rather than just two Mini Traxions?
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moose_droppings
Aug 31, 2008, 5:54 PM
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Which ever device you end up using, always use backup knots.
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milesenoell
Aug 31, 2008, 8:10 PM
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TR solo on a Petzl Ascenscion (sp?) is my bread and butter. I have been using mine for so long that I trust it completely, despite the fact that it has teeth and isn't backed up. I think that using a second device and/or using safety knots makes the most sense if you are at all concerned. There are several ascenders and several bag hauling devices that all can be used to self belay, but since none of them were truly designed for it lots of bright folks choose to back them up somehow. Two devices is easy and makes sense but expensive and typically invollves a chest harness (ugh!). Safety knots are free and simple-solid, but kind of a pain in the ass to stop and tie/untie. One way that I used to use is to tie a prussik hitch on the rope above the ascender so that the ascender just pushes the hitch up the rope but is ready for a fall (make sure to use slightly larger than average utility cord so it won't get drawn into the device and bind between the rope and the ascender).
All that having been said, the worst TR solo fall creates forces so small that any of the available devices will almost undoubtedly hold you assuming that all else is well with your system. Using a system with redundancy increases the likelihood of your catching any mistakes or problems in addition to adding another layer of protection should something fail. Until you are super-familiar with your system, never climb alone on it (strangers are fine, but don't be last at the crag).
Oh, and one last thing: using the rope or other gear to weight the free end of the rope sets it up to grind against the base of the rocks, so I use a nalgene bottle since they are freakin' bullet-proof.
OK, another last thing: I started out using a Grigri but hated the rope drag so I switched to the Ascenscion cause it feeds so smooth and easy. But, the Grigri is sensetive to rope diameter and feeds easier with narrower ropes, and can be safely modified to feed ropes more smoothly still (especially opening up the angle at which the rope passes through the device).
(This post was edited by milesenoell on Aug 31, 2008, 8:25 PM)
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scottek67
Sep 5, 2008, 7:47 AM
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hey dodgy... I've tried it all and I have the answer! (I'm really surprized I'm the first to bring it up!) Get yourself an "USHBA" ascender!!! I did the Gri-Gri as well and it wore me out quickly. It is a belay device only! one trick I figured out when using an USHBA is tie your approach shoes or a pair of sneakers on the rope about 4 feet off the ground and it will travel smoothly up the rope compared to any ascender! I also must mention (for safety sake) if you are climbing a full length of rope (60m top-rope) then throw a couple knots in behind you just in case. It's also quite easy to rap down... just throw on the gri-gri when you are ready to come down!
(This post was edited by scottek67 on Sep 5, 2008, 7:53 AM)
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Dodgy_Lurker
Sep 11, 2008, 3:37 PM
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Well, just to finish this off, I went with the double mini-traxions in the end. Using timm's setup is sweet once the rope is weighted (I use a hunk of metal that I found in the shop).
The only issue is getting back down again. I mucked around for a while with prussics to unweight the rope, but man was that a ball ache.
In case others read this thread looking for ideas, my solution is pretty swift:
1) Fall off wall (i.e. weight the traxions).
2) Attach a Trango Cinch on the rope above the traxions. Even though the rope is weighted you can still get the Cinch on there easily.
3) Attach a long sling to the cinch with a biner, and slide the Cinch as high up the rope as you can reach.
4) Step in the loop of the sling and stand up (like using an aider).
5) Attach a Quickdraw to the Cinch biner and your belay loop (I actually set this up in advance by attaching the QD to my belay loop before I stand up).
6) Sit down, and you are held by the QD and Cinch, with plenty of slack to remove the ClusterF of traxions.
7) Rap back down using the cinch.
Using the above method, I can get from end of climb to ground in under a minute. Soooo much less hassle than prussics, although you need to buy yet more gear (a $50 Cinch), and the cinch is finicky.
Issues that I can see are:
- Quickdraw to Cinch biner is metal on metal which is bad, but it's only holding static weight, so not insta-death. Same goes for having a QD between you and the belay device. Not ideal, but does the job.
- Rapping on the cinch is a learned skill as the handle is teeny, but it's the $10 hooker rule: it may be ugly, but it does the job.
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dingus
Sep 11, 2008, 3:47 PM
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Dodgy_Lurker wrote: irregularpanda wrote: I do this: One rope, rabbit eared figure 8 know up top. microcender above a minitraxion. Tend both devices intelligently. Done. Well I think I've changed my mind 3 times in as many days and like the look of the double Mini Traxion setup. Now irregularpanda, why use a "microcender above a minitraxion" setup rather than just two Mini Traxions?
I've used a single mini-trax for a while now. Never liked the fact that one tiny bit of metal was all that was seperating me from my doom. My DOOM I tell you.
I scored a 2nd mini trax on sale and tried that setup.
SWEET! I climbed with my double trax and I liked it. I LIKED IT!
DMT
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dingus
Sep 11, 2008, 4:07 PM
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Dodgy_Lurker wrote: The only issue is getting back down again.
Here's how I do it: (so far)
If the top has a ledge or something where I can unweight the minis:
1. I use a grigri to rap. I put it on the belay loop below the top trax but extended with 2 lockers. I just leave the lockers there and move the grigri out of the way when I'm done with it.
2. So at top out I unweight the rope and pass some slack through first the lower and then the upper - just enough to thread the gri.
3. The grigri goes on the rope above the top trax. Once its on and clipped in I weight it and get it to engage - test it a tiny bit.
4. Remove the lower trax completely, but clip it back to the lower harness biner. It just hangs ythere till I'm done.
5. Once ready to go I just disengage the ratchet on the top trax and rap on down brother. Occasionally the rope passing through the trax will engagte the ratchet, but I learned pretty quickly how to avoid this.
6. Once at the bottom? I engage the upper trax with my thumb. That's like 'on belay.'
7. Take off the grigri and put it away.
8. Reattach the lower trax to the rope and test.
9.Climb on dude.
Takes me about 1 minute at the top and 1 minute at the bottom; to do all this.
If the top is a hanging situation or trying a route I may nbot get up? I introduce a Yate adj daisy into the system - attaching the upper trax to my harness (instead of directly to the belay loop).
At the top of the climg the grigri goes on the rope BELOW the upper trax. Once on I cinch it up. Satisiifed its working I punch the release button on the daisy and instantly I'm off the upper trax and on the grigri.
In this case I remove the upper trax - untying the chest piece is a hassle but I don't like the prospect of the trax preventing the groigri lever from working properly.
Anyway, I just disengage the lower trax in this case, rather than remove it.
Hope that helps.
DMT
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pro_alien
Sep 11, 2008, 5:23 PM
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What's so evil about TR solo with the Grigri ? It doesn't self feed, but that way the lead head doesn't get turned off completely. When you get to a bolt or decent stance, pull the slack through the Grigri. Worst case fall is half what it would be on lead.
(this is assuming rope fixed at the top, not moving through the anchor).
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dingus
Sep 11, 2008, 5:44 PM
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I don't find it evil, just annoying.
The double trax setup is the easiest and most, um, reassuring self-TR setup I've ever tried (not that I've tried all that many haha)
Cheers!
DMT
ps. You make a good point about lead head though.
(This post was edited by dingus on Sep 11, 2008, 5:44 PM)
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Dodgy_Lurker
Sep 11, 2008, 5:52 PM
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dingus - yeah, all of my TR routes (at my gym) are hanging with no ledge so unweighting the top traxion is the issue for me. Those little teeth are in deep.
I googled for that adjustable daisy - cunning.
I had a spare Cinch knocking around the gym hence my choice. I guess there's a bunch of solutions really.
pro_alien - TR solo with a GriGri is a ball ache as my system is slingshot TR with one end bolted to the floor. My gym is 70ft high, so the weight of the rope pulls slack through the GriGri once you're a few feet off the ground, leading to a real whipper if you're not attentive.
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dingus
Sep 11, 2008, 6:02 PM
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Dodgy_Lurker wrote: dingus - yeah, all of my TR routes (at my gym) are hanging with no ledge so unweighting the top traxion is the issue for me. Those little teeth are in deep. I googled for that adjustable daisy - cunning.
Now of course that buckle thingie ain't gonna take no lead whip. So its strictly TR for that approach.
Brutus showed me the trick whilst ascending and descending fixed rope. Use a jumar on the rope, above the belay device (or prussiks if double ropes) attached to the adjustable daisy.
As you rap down use your guide hand thumb to disengage the ratchet on the jumar. If you slip and fall or something, let go of the jumar and it grabs the rope.
If you need to stop to work with the ropes or perhaps drill a rappel anchor or pass a knot? The jumar grabs the rope. When you're ready to go again, getting your weight off the jumar is as simple as a 'push of the button.'
Its is SWEET!
DMT
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james481
Sep 11, 2008, 6:44 PM
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scottek67 wrote: hey dodgy... I've tried it all and I have the answer! (I'm really surprized I'm the first to bring it up!) Get yourself an "USHBA" ascender!!! I did the Gri-Gri as well and it wore me out quickly. It is a belay device only! one trick I figured out when using an USHBA is tie your approach shoes or a pair of sneakers on the rope about 4 feet off the ground and it will travel smoothly up the rope compared to any ascender! I also must mention (for safety sake) if you are climbing a full length of rope (60m top-rope) then throw a couple knots in behind you just in case. It's also quite easy to rap down... just throw on the gri-gri when you are ready to come down!
AFAIK, the Ushba has been tested by several folks (can't come up with a link right now, sorry) for solo TR, and found to be inadequate and even dangerous. The problem, as I recall, is the dual cam design of the Ushba can severely damage or even sever the rope under higher fall forces. Of course, these types of falls should never happen on a properly set up solo TR, but plenty of people have died because of things that should never happen. Save yourself some grief and use the proper tool for the job, i.e. a micro or rescuecender.
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