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majid_sabet
Oct 16, 2008, 6:57 AM
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gothcopter wrote: knieveltech wrote: Right there with you. I think it's going to take a diagram for me to get my head wrapped around the system they where using. Ok, here goes... So, imagine a scenario where climber B has just finished belaying climber A on the lead of an overhanging climb. Climbers B and C both want to toprope the climb, but it is only safe to toprope with the rope redirected through the draws. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=2591[/image] Climber B takes the rope out of her belay device, ties an alpine butterfly right there on the rope and clips it to her harness with locking carabiners. Climber C goes on belay on the leader's end of the rope. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=2592[/image] Climber B ascends, unclipping the rope above her from the draws and clipping the trailing rope into the draws beneath her. When she gets to the anchor, she goes on direct, unclips belay rope from the anchor, and clips the rope trailing through the draws into the anchor. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=2593[/image] At this point, climber C should switch to belaying on the rope trailed by climber B, and then lower climber B to the ground. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=2594[/image] Climber C can then tie into the end of the rope, and be belayed up by climber B. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=2595[/image] The problem came during step 4 -- climber C never switched to belaying on the other rope. There is a way to accomplish this same task without going off belay. All climber B needs to do is take a couple of extra draws or carabiners to the top of the route with her. Then instead of going on direct, she can simply connect the trailing rope to the toprope anchor alongside her belay rope. She can then be lowered, and the trailing line will come down with her. Once on the ground, she can pull her former belay line through the anchors to get it out of the way if desired.
so you are saying the follower(aka second climber) is climbing with a butterfly knot clip to the harness with a locking biner.
basically he/she is attached to a rope via biner while climbing? right
if that is how its done, that would be the most stupidest system I have ever heard cause chances of cross loading the biner with such knot is highly possible during fall . the tension of the upper rope (belay)and weight of the lower rope(free section) may keep the knot in the center of the biner's gate if climber happens to fall in between the draws.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Oct 16, 2008, 7:09 AM)
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socalclimber
Oct 16, 2008, 10:44 AM
Post #27 of 64
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Glad to here this wasn't worse. I've seen this system used before, I really don't like it. It's far to easy to make a mistake, as we can all see.
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rat-baby
Oct 16, 2008, 10:50 AM
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Hey wasatchchic, Your roll in this is not as big as you think, you need to just get back on the horse. I'm sure the whole experience was traumatizing for you, and thats even more reason to get back out climbing.
Look, any one who has been climbing for a while has done something that has confused the belayer. My main partner and I climb together at least 3 days a week for years now and still (very rarely) get confusion over some kind of rope silliness. We either work it out on the ground/belay or the climber gets feed up and says to hell with you'll understand when I get there, leaving the belayer to say I'm glad you know what your doing because I sure as hell don't.
secondly, it's the climbers responsibility to check the system before climbing and before lowering. If they don't do this their asking for trouble. For lowering it's as simple as having the belayer suck you up into the chains to check for sure your on belay before unclipping. Hell it even makes cleaning the anchor easy when your hangin on the rope. And a route like Ro, if she could not take one second to look down down and see (even after you expressed confusion) that you were on the wrong side of the line, well she was asking for it.
To sum up, this is a very sad situation, but the climber blew it, not you. You did what you need to do. Gave her the ride, told her that you were confused with the system, she said you'll understand and then did not make sure you did. how is that your fault?
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dhaulagiri
Oct 16, 2008, 1:04 PM
Post #30 of 64
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I'm really glad to hear that the injured climber is going to be ok. With the help of the pictures I understand what happened, and I think it is a good reminder for everyone to be extra sure they know what they are doing BEFORE they leave the ground.
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camhead
Oct 16, 2008, 1:22 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: so you are saying the follower(aka second climber) is climbing with a butterfly knot clip to the harness with a locking biner. basically he/she is attached to a rope via biner while climbing? right if that is how its done, that would be the most stupidest system I have ever heard cause chances of cross loading the biner with such knot is highly possible during fall . the tension of the upper rope (belay)and weight of the lower rope(free section) may keep the knot in the center of the biner's gate if climber happens to fall in between the draws.
yet, that's not what caused the accident.
if you are worried about majid's scenario, just double up on the locking biners.
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robdotcalm
Oct 16, 2008, 2:51 PM
Post #32 of 64
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Wasatchchic: Thanks for posting. Helpful for us to know what happened and it takes courage to expose yourself to the comments of e-Peanut Gallery. Take care of yourself and heal with time.
Marcy: Best wishes and prayers for a good recovery.
Gothcopter and others: Thanks for the clear explanation of the details of the procedure.
Observation: Toproping and being lowered would appear to be relatively safe activities compared to other aspects of climbing, and yet they continue to be a source of serious accidents and have a lot communication breakdowns. I know from personal experience.
Editorial comment: Tying into the middle by means of a butterfly knot clipped to the belay loop is a common procedure. Has anybody ever heard of an accident using this method as a result of carabiner failure, in particular, if two locking carabiners are used (as they always should be)?
Gratias et valete bene!
RobertusPunctumPacificus
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j_ung
Oct 16, 2008, 3:03 PM
Post #33 of 64
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majid_sabet wrote: gothcopter wrote: knieveltech wrote: Right there with you. I think it's going to take a diagram for me to get my head wrapped around the system they where using. Ok, here goes... So, imagine a scenario where climber B has just finished belaying climber A on the lead of an overhanging climb. Climbers B and C both want to toprope the climb, but it is only safe to toprope with the rope redirected through the draws. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=2591[/image] Climber B takes the rope out of her belay device, ties an alpine butterfly right there on the rope and clips it to her harness with locking carabiners. Climber C goes on belay on the leader's end of the rope. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=2592[/image] Climber B ascends, unclipping the rope above her from the draws and clipping the trailing rope into the draws beneath her. When she gets to the anchor, she goes on direct, unclips belay rope from the anchor, and clips the rope trailing through the draws into the anchor. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=2593[/image] At this point, climber C should switch to belaying on the rope trailed by climber B, and then lower climber B to the ground. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=2594[/image] Climber C can then tie into the end of the rope, and be belayed up by climber B. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=2595[/image] The problem came during step 4 -- climber C never switched to belaying on the other rope. There is a way to accomplish this same task without going off belay. All climber B needs to do is take a couple of extra draws or carabiners to the top of the route with her. Then instead of going on direct, she can simply connect the trailing rope to the toprope anchor alongside her belay rope. She can then be lowered, and the trailing line will come down with her. Once on the ground, she can pull her former belay line through the anchors to get it out of the way if desired. so you are saying the follower(aka second climber) is climbing with a butterfly knot clip to the harness with a locking biner. basically he/she is attached to a rope via biner while climbing? right if that is how its done, that would be the most stupidest system I have ever heard cause chances of cross loading the biner with such knot is highly possible during fall . the tension of the upper rope (belay)and weight of the lower rope(free section) may keep the knot in the center of the biner's gate if climber happens to fall in between the draws.
BinerS
And yes, I get what you're saying about tension from above and below.
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kennoyce
Oct 16, 2008, 4:08 PM
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This is just one more example that major sorbet has no real experience with rock climbing, has just learned some terms off of the internet, and professes to know everything about climbing safety even though he has never touched a rock.
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majid_sabet
Oct 16, 2008, 4:27 PM
Post #35 of 64
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camhead wrote: majid_sabet wrote: so you are saying the follower(aka second climber) is climbing with a butterfly knot clip to the harness with a locking biner. basically he/she is attached to a rope via biner while climbing? right if that is how its done, that would be the most stupidest system I have ever heard cause chances of cross loading the biner with such knot is highly possible during fall . the tension of the upper rope (belay)and weight of the lower rope(free section) may keep the knot in the center of the biner's gate if climber happens to fall in between the draws. yet, that's not what caused the accident. if you are worried about majid's scenario, just double up on the locking biners.
using biner is another extra link between harness and main line which could fail and I am sure 90% of RCers do not like this idea even with two biners but I guess, we just have to wait for one accident with faitality involving butterfly and biner to end this practice.
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camhead
Oct 16, 2008, 4:34 PM
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it's irrelevant, majid. this accident was the result of two people being in over their heads and making an error; it had nothing to do with your gear-technical-failure fantasies.
And yeah, we'll have to wait to hear about an accident that happens when someone clips into a butterfly with TWO OPPOSED & LOCKED BINERS.
don't hold your breath, though.
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altelis
Oct 16, 2008, 4:43 PM
Post #37 of 64
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majid_sabet wrote: camhead wrote: majid_sabet wrote: so you are saying the follower(aka second climber) is climbing with a butterfly knot clip to the harness with a locking biner. basically he/she is attached to a rope via biner while climbing? right if that is how its done, that would be the most stupidest system I have ever heard cause chances of cross loading the biner with such knot is highly possible during fall . the tension of the upper rope (belay)and weight of the lower rope(free section) may keep the knot in the center of the biner's gate if climber happens to fall in between the draws. yet, that's not what caused the accident. if you are worried about majid's scenario, just double up on the locking biners. using biner is another extra link between harness and main line which could fail and I am sure 90% of RCers do not like this idea even with two biners but I guess, we just have to wait for one accident with faitality involving butterfly and biner to end this practice.
hey man- i have a question for you. i'm not trying to jump down your throat, but do hope you have a well thought out answer (sometimes your answers are a little, well, curt (not you curt, just the answers, you know, are well, curt---you know!)
this is how most people set up a glacier rig with 3 or 4 people on a rope. first and last tie into the ends and middle person/people clip in with a locker into an alpine butterfly. i've caught many falls by a middle person falling into a crevasse, or a middle person falling and pulling the last person off, meaning the biner is holding tight the person, the rope from top and the weight of the climber beneath them.
never had a problem. you might claim that on a snow slope the forces are different- and they are. though for a middle person to punch through a crevasse they ARE totally suspended by the rope.
something to think about is that its the butterfly knot thats triloaded and not the biner (though there IS a chance for crossloading of the biner across the gate if it shifts).
i'm DEFINITELY not advocating the methods used at the RRG HOWEVER this isn't because of your objections but rather due to the overly complicated systems that were clearly confusing.
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Jbitz
Oct 16, 2008, 6:34 PM
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A middle-of-the-line Bowline is an alternative way of tying in short on a rope if you are concerned with crossloading biners or you just happen to be short on lockers.
Attached figure is from "Freedom of the Hills".
(This post was edited by Jbitz on Oct 16, 2008, 7:15 PM)
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MBowline.JPG
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drfelatio
Oct 16, 2008, 7:16 PM
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First, my condolences go out to all those involved. I wish you all a speedy recovery.
jdefazio wrote: Great, thanks for the sketches. Exactly what I was envisioning. I am still unclear, however, why in this scenario... gothcopter wrote: There is a way to accomplish this same task without going off belay. All climber B needs to do is take a couple of extra draws or carabiners to the top of the route with her. Then instead of going on direct, she can simply connect the trailing rope to the toprope anchor alongside her belay rope. She can then be lowered, and the trailing line will come down with her. Once on the ground, she can pull her former belay line through the anchors to get it out of the way if desired. ...the climber (B) needs to do anything at all but finish the climb and just be lowered from the TR anchor, without any change in anything. Couldn't she just be lowered down, remove her tie in knot from bight, pull out the big loop of slack and be all set? You would still end up with a TR slingshot with one end running up through all the draws, unless I am missing something.
Seems like it would work to me, but it would require a considerable amount of rope. Depending on the height of the climb, a single rope might not be enough to return the climber to the ground AND keep the trailing end from pulling through one or more draws.
Better to just rig a second rope for the next TR.
(This post was edited by drfelatio on Oct 16, 2008, 7:18 PM)
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jdefazio
Oct 16, 2008, 7:27 PM
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drfelatio wrote: First, my condolences go out to all those involved. I wish you all a speedy recovery. ...Seems like it would work to me, but it would require a considerable amount of rope. Depending on the height of the climb, a single rope might not be enough to return the climber to the ground AND keep the trailing end from pulling through one or more draws.
Re: the amount of rope, it would be the same as for the unnecessary belay-transfer situation that was attempted in this case.
drfelatio wrote: Better to just rig a second rope for the next TR.
Damn straight.
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Neel
Oct 16, 2008, 8:00 PM
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In reply to: Seems like it would work to me, but it would require a considerable amount of rope. Depending on the height of the climb, a single rope might not be enough to return the climber to the ground AND keep the trailing end from pulling through one or more draws. Better to just rig a second rope for the next TR.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't this require a rope of length 4x the height of the climb in both scenarios? Which would mean with a 60M rope, you'd only be able to do a 15M climb. I haven't climbed this particular route, but most of the ones at Roadside that i've climbed are significantly higher than 15M.
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jdefazio
Oct 16, 2008, 8:07 PM
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Neel wrote: In reply to: Seems like it would work to me, but it would require a considerable amount of rope. Depending on the height of the climb, a single rope might not be enough to return the climber to the ground AND keep the trailing end from pulling through one or more draws. Better to just rig a second rope for the next TR. Correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't this require a rope of length 4x the height of the climb in both scenarios? Which would mean with a 60M rope, you'd only be able to do a 15M climb. I haven't climbed this particular route, but most of the ones at Roadside that i've climbed are significantly higher than 15M.
At least. More like 2x the height of the climb plus 2x the length of climb, plus wandering, knots, working end, etc...
Use of two ropes, or to lead the route are better options.
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drfelatio
Oct 16, 2008, 8:14 PM
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jdefazio wrote: drfelatio wrote: First, my condolences go out to all those involved. I wish you all a speedy recovery. ...Seems like it would work to me, but it would require a considerable amount of rope. Depending on the height of the climb, a single rope might not be enough to return the climber to the ground AND keep the trailing end from pulling through one or more draws. Re: the amount of rope, it would be the same as for the unnecessary belay-transfer situation that was attempted in this case.
Yes, AFTER you've pulled the large loop of slack out. Until then, however, lowering a climber tied into the "middle" (i.e. not the end) of the rope from, say, 50' would require 150' of rope (belayer to anchor to climber to anchor) not including the amount needed to go back down through the draws.
Neel is on the right track. 4x the height wouldn't always be accurate, though, since the length of rope needed would depend on other factors like the angle of the wall.
[EDIT]
Wait, nevermind. I see what you're saying now. Ignore this post.
(This post was edited by drfelatio on Oct 16, 2008, 8:25 PM)
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Neel
Oct 16, 2008, 10:33 PM
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drfelatio wrote: Neel is on the right track. 4x the height wouldn't always be accurate, though, since the length of rope needed would depend on other factors like the angle of the wall. [EDIT] Wait, nevermind. I see what you're saying now. Ignore this post.
Thanks for the clarification - Yes, i was simplifying... as with any overhanging or wandering route, it's not just a matter of height + knots, etc... but 4x is just a ballpark. the point was that it's a LOT of rope (hope they had a stopper knot in the end just in case....)
Regardless this seems like a giant clusterf**k. I thought i was missing something here, but i guess i wasn't. there's a giant margin for confusion if the belayer and climber haven't done it before. Glad to hear that the climber is recovering though.
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Basta916
Oct 16, 2008, 11:16 PM
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majid_sabet wrote: gothcopter wrote: knieveltech wrote: Right there with you. I think it's going to take a diagram for me to get my head wrapped around the system they where using. Ok, here goes... So, imagine a scenario where climber B has just finished belaying climber A on the lead of an overhanging climb. Climbers B and C both want to toprope the climb, but it is only safe to toprope with the rope redirected through the draws. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=2591[/image] Climber B takes the rope out of her belay device, ties an alpine butterfly right there on the rope and clips it to her harness with locking carabiners. Climber C goes on belay on the leader's end of the rope. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=2592[/image] Climber B ascends, unclipping the rope above her from the draws and clipping the trailing rope into the draws beneath her. When she gets to the anchor, she goes on direct, unclips belay rope from the anchor, and clips the rope trailing through the draws into the anchor. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=2593[/image] At this point, climber C should switch to belaying on the rope trailed by climber B, and then lower climber B to the ground. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=2594[/image] Climber C can then tie into the end of the rope, and be belayed up by climber B. [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=2595[/image] The problem came during step 4 -- climber C never switched to belaying on the other rope. There is a way to accomplish this same task without going off belay. All climber B needs to do is take a couple of extra draws or carabiners to the top of the route with her. Then instead of going on direct, she can simply connect the trailing rope to the toprope anchor alongside her belay rope. She can then be lowered, and the trailing line will come down with her. Once on the ground, she can pull her former belay line through the anchors to get it out of the way if desired. so you are saying the follower(aka second climber) is climbing with a butterfly knot clip to the harness with a locking biner. basically he/she is attached to a rope via biner while climbing? right if that is how its done, that would be the most stupidest system I have ever heard cause chances of cross loading the biner with such knot is highly possible during fall . the tension of the upper rope (belay)and weight of the lower rope(free section) may keep the knot in the center of the biner's gate if climber happens to fall in between the draws.
Majid, is it a surprise to you that people use a locking biners to attach their belay device to their harness? That is essentially how this girl was tied to the rope. And if you read this" accident report" you will find out that the locking biner was not an issue...... please, don't confuse readers and create drama about something that wasn't the problem of any kind. Unfortunately climbers error was a main cause for this injury.
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majid_sabet
Oct 17, 2008, 2:52 AM
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Basta916 wrote: Majid, is it a surprise to you that people use a locking biners to attach their belay device to their harness? That is essentially how this girl was tied to the rope. And if you read this" accident report" you will find out that the locking biner was not an issue...... please, don't confuse readers and create drama about something that wasn't the problem of any kind. Unfortunately climbers error was a main cause for this injury.
belaying with locking biner is different than climbing with a locking biner to attach your rope to your harness. I am not saying biner is not rated or its never been used in similar applications. Generally most climber agree that any extra link between climber and it's rope is an additional item which may fail and people should be aware of its potential hazard.I am sure one day, sh*t will hit the rocks and climbers will return to the traditional way attaching their rope to their harnesses.
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david_g48
Oct 17, 2008, 10:06 AM
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Wasatchchic
I have known Marcy for 10 years and she has always taken responsibility for her own safety as we all should when we are rock climbing. I am extremely upset to have heard the news about her injuries but do not think placing blame on anyone at this point is needed. We need to learn from our experiences and minimize the exposure to risk in the future which assumes that you keep on climbing. I am sure that Marcy would agree.
All that said when Marcy and I climbed she had always been adverse to complicated procedures that increase the risk of mismanagement and injury. I think a lesson to learn in addition to what has already been stated is to not become too relaxed and ignore our old intuitions about danger.
Marcy my thoughts are with you and I hope for a speedy and full recovery.
From your very old and life long friend.
David |
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rightarmbad
Oct 17, 2008, 12:14 PM
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Using a screwgate such as belaymaster (http://www.mec.ca/...d_id=845524441776485), completely renders your objection to clipping in with an alpine, impotent.
Sorry camhead, pressed the wrong reply button, was meant to be referenced to the idiot.
(This post was edited by rightarmbad on Oct 17, 2008, 12:16 PM)
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chossmonkey
Oct 17, 2008, 12:55 PM
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knieveltech wrote: 1. Sweet. Thanks for taking the time to diagram that out. 2. WHAT THE FUCK?! Nothing about that system looks like a good idea to me. People seriously do this? Seriously?
You really need two belayers or the route has to be short enough that the climber can lower without touching the anchor.
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