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geoteck
Nov 8, 2002, 11:43 PM
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jt512 QUOTE regarding rapelling: "Chances are, your instructor will either teach you the double fisherman's or the rewoven figure-8 with double fisherman's backups; however, if you do your homework, you may come to the conclusion that I and many other experienced climbers have that the scary-looking double overhand -- the so-called Euro Death Knot (EDK) -- is actually safer."
Interested in a good explanation of the differences. Aimed at jt512 but open to all.
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offwidthclimber
Nov 8, 2002, 11:53 PM
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EDK rules. low profile. less likely to get snagged.
just make sure you leave long tails.
peace.
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geoteck
Nov 8, 2002, 11:59 PM
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ok... good to know people like it, but I was looking for more of an explanation
Thanks anyways!
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wlderdude
Nov 9, 2002, 12:32 AM
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If your rope gets stuck on a multipitch route, I would definetly call that less than ideal. Dangerous, even.
Climbing up to get the rope unsaged would be really dangerous.
The overhand knot leaves an edge free to glide without getting stuck. Those other knots don't.
Liability wise, the triple fisherman's knot is the safest to teach and endorse. It won't come undone and how can a book or guide be held liablie if somone falls while free soloing or ascending a stuck rope and falls to their death? When they tie it without long tails, though, you might be found liable when it comes apart.
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fitz
Nov 9, 2002, 12:41 AM
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A search would probably turn up a billions messages on this subject, but here goes...
There are two knot related issues in two rope raps, will the knot hold and will the ropes pull...
Stuck lines have probably led to the most multi pitch epics, but failed knots have certainly claimed some lives (ex. there was a recent fatality in Zion which the surviving partner believes was due to knot failure).
All testing I know of confirms that a double grapevine is a pretty bomber way to connect two lines. It's principle drawbacks are that it can be hard to untie and it is a natural stopper for cracks and flakes. Some people tie a square knot, rewoven 8, etc., in the middle to get around the hard to untie issue, but these methods also make the knot bulker. And, I would argue, some variations are less bomber than the original, but I won't go there again...
The EDK (overhand) travels very well over edges, but it has a slight tendancy to slip if different diameter lines are used and the knot is not properly tightened, and it can flip (or 'roll') when loaded, which has led to the knot 'rolling' off the ends in some cases (with understandably dire consequences).
This led to someone pushing a compromise, an 'overhand 8' or 'upright 8' (basically, you put the ends together, and start an 8 like they are one line to tie into your harness). However, this knot only SEEMS safer. It is actually less safe. It still rolls ('inverts' really), but when it does, it consumes much more rope, and it does not agressively tighten when it rolls.
That last is an important point. A simple EDK actually requires dramatically more force for each successive roll, with the third roll generally requiring force beyond the breaking point of the line. So, if you leave adaquate tails (at least 2') and properly pretension the knot before you use it, the EDK can be very safe and effective for rappel situations.
The double fishermans is still stronger, but again, a stuck line can be pretty epic as well.
-jjf
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jafarr
Nov 13, 2002, 7:07 PM
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does anyone have a link or pic of an EDK knot??
or is it just another name for a double overhand??
mucho thanks,
j
*edit: clarification*
[ This Message was edited by: jafarr on 2002-11-13 11:09 ]
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geoteck
Nov 13, 2002, 7:16 PM
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yes - that's what I'm looking for; a explanation of the differences between the two knots - how to tie them...
pics or liks would be great
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jt512
Nov 13, 2002, 7:19 PM
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Quote:yes - that's what I'm looking for; a explanation of the differences between the two knots - how to tie them...
pics or liks would be great
The info is out there, but none of us has these links off the top of our heads. Any of us would have to do a web search for them. Instead of asking us to do it, why don't you just do it yourself?
-Jay
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stone_monkey
Nov 13, 2002, 7:27 PM
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petzl site has pics
http://www.petzl.com/statique/sport/ENG/tech/html/knots8.html
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dune
Nov 13, 2002, 8:11 PM
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I've only used this knot with a buddy who prefers it, so I don't really have much exp. He ties a backup EDK on the 2' tails. It seems that the backup doesn't get in the way of edges and prevents the chance of failure. Anyone else do this? I thought it was a solid variation that has the advantage of the standard EDK without the risk.
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geoteck
Nov 13, 2002, 8:24 PM
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jt512:
Sometimes it's nice to get a link with a bit of a comment - especailly since I know nothing about this knot. Reliable sites, preferences, ect.
But thanks for nothing anyways.
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jt512
Nov 14, 2002, 12:40 AM
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Quote:Sometimes it's nice to get a link with a bit of a comment
This quesiton has been discussed ad nauseum on this website. You could find the discussions in 2 minutes if you bothered to lift a finger and do a Forum Search. Likewise, you can find information on the web by searching Google. Of course, it's always nice to let someone else do your homework for you.
Quote:
But thanks for nothing anyways.
I will keep this comment in mind next time you post a question.
-Jay
[ This Message was edited by: jt512 on 2002-11-13 16:45 ]
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geoteck
Nov 14, 2002, 9:04 PM
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I generally like to do my homework and I check into things, I ALSO prefer other people's opinions on them (ie - the websites). I'm relatively new so I generally like to see what the concensus on an issue is.
I was just hoping if someone was reading and didn't mind passing on a website - they might do that. I didn't say anyone HAD to do it. If you don't want to "waste" your time - don't bother.
Also I've come to the conclusion that your opinion is unwanted from this point on. Any statements you may post will most likely be a waste of time reading so why should I bother.
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lazide
Nov 14, 2002, 9:20 PM
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WARNING: DON'T DO THIS WITHOUT ACTUALLY TESTING IT!
The EDK is an overhand knot, tied so that the ends of both ropes are parallel to each other.
It is called the Euro Death Knot because, frankly its fricken scary. However, if tied with 18" or more of tail, and properly tensioned and dressed (you do that anyways, don't you? ), it is much safer than a figure 8 setup the same way. (the figure 8 knot doesn't bend the rope as sharply, and doesn't get the 'grab' you need to stop it from continuing to roll)
I can attest to the EDK's scaryness factor, strength (enough for my 85kg weight + another 40kg worth of crud in a 300ft freehanging rap anyways), and ease of pulling over edges. (when rapping down high angle slabs with trees in the wind, you want all the help you can get)
But yes, the EDK is called that because the first time you use it you want to say 'No fricken way man!'
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bradhill
Nov 14, 2002, 9:43 PM
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EDKs won't invert and walk off the end. A figure 8 will. Go with a grapvine if you don't care about untying it, but don't use a figure 8 to join ropes for a rappell.
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redpoint73
Nov 14, 2002, 10:41 PM
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Definitely tie the double overhand with lots of tail (2 feet).
I've also seen people tying backing up the double overhand with fisherman's knots on both tails. Of course, this pretty much eliminates the benefit of using the duble overhand in the first place (i.e., that the know "flips" to right itself when you pull the rope). So the only benefit to that, is that it is a bit easier to untie than the double fisherman knot. Thought that was pretty strange.
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tradguy
Nov 14, 2002, 10:50 PM
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I've used double/triple fisherman's, double figure 8's, and double overhands. They all seem to work fine. I personally would NEVER tie the simple EDK (one overhand) without the second overhand as a backup. I just don't trust it that much.
Another variation I've been considering is joining the ropes with an overhand near the tails, and then tying an alpine butterfly such that the overhand is in the middle of the resulting loop. Comments? Thoughts? Has anyone actually tried this? It seems like it would pull reasonably well, and be easy to untie, and not have the roll-up worries of the EDK.
Of course, the best way is to use a 100 m rope! (bi-color 9mm, tie into the middle and lead with doubles)
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valygrl
Nov 15, 2002, 12:29 AM
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Quote:
Another variation I've been considering is joining the ropes with an overhand near the tails, and then tying an alpine butterfly such that the overhand is in the middle of the resulting loop. Comments? Thoughts? Has anyone actually tried this? It seems like it would pull reasonably well, and be easy to untie, and not have the roll-up worries of the EDK.
is this a troll? or... you saw this in one of ptpp's teaching posts, right? that was for joining 2 fixed lines, not rapelling. it's a terrible idea - the loop would catch everything.
i use edk or rewoven 8, used to use 2ble fisherman's. there's a ton of info posted on rec.climbing, including knot strength test stats, and analysis of edk vs fig8 rolling. sorry, can't look it up 4 u now
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