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junkie
Nov 18, 2002, 9:28 PM
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Hiya,
does anyone know the names and dates of some of Gill's testpieces? You know, the hardest s--- the dude put up in his heyday.
I'm just curious, because I KNOW he was miles ahead of his time. I'm just trying to get a feel of just-how-far he actually was.
Thanks!
K
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epic_ed
Nov 18, 2002, 9:37 PM
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You might want to ask him yourself. Send him a PM.
http://www.rockclimbing.com/athlete/view.php?ID=jgill
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tommyf
Nov 18, 2002, 9:38 PM
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Why not just ask him,, He's on here,, If you PM him I bet he'll get back to you,, We talked a little bit about a spot in Alabama,,
Tommy
Edited for spelling
[ This Message was edited by: tommyf on 2002-11-18 13:43 ]
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rck_climber
Nov 18, 2002, 9:41 PM
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Also, don't forget to read his "Pro Athlete" Biography. There are also some great pics of him, both then and now.
Mick
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rrrADAM
Nov 18, 2002, 10:00 PM
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His bio is from quoted from PMs he sent me.
I even shared PMs with him when I was going to try the Thimbal in Needles, SD. He told me he was "glad the state didn't blow it up to enlarge the parking area".
He's got some huge "stones", as I couldn't even get that clean on TR, and it's almost 35'.
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jhundrup
Nov 18, 2002, 10:24 PM
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Check out this post
http://www.rockclimbing.com/forums/viewtopic.php?topic=17989&forum=55&1
It is about a book by Pat Amment on the history of climbing in American and it is very good. I got the book from the Wilderness Press and have enjoyed it.
Jared
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rrrADAM
Nov 18, 2002, 10:38 PM
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Send him a PM through his User ID...
http://www.rockclimbing.com/users/list.php?UserID=jgill
The above referenced link is to his Pro Athlete bio, good reading also, and is like I said, autobiographical.
You can also read through some of his posts and replies, by clicking on "messages posted by jgill" at the bottom of his user profile.
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rrrADAM
Nov 18, 2002, 10:39 PM
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The above referenced link is to his Pro Athlete bio, good reading also, and is like I said, autobiographical.
Send him a PM through his User ID...
http://www.rockclimbing.com/users/list.php?UserID=jgill
You can also read through some of his posts and replies, by clicking on "messages posted by jgill" at the bottom of his user profile.
[ This Message was edited by: rrradam on 2002-11-18 14:39 ]
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jgill
Nov 19, 2002, 1:40 AM
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Hello Junkie. Thanks for your post and your interest about my climbing career. I've been doing this stuff, at various levels of difficulty, for almost 50 years, and was fairly active as a boulderer from about 1957 till 1987, when I suffered a bad arm injury and subsequently backed away from dynamics.
As rrradam as suggested, you can gain some info at my RC.com Pro Athlete Profile.
Also, you might be interested in the book Pat Ament wrote about me. To some extent it would answer your question. There are a lot of photos of my problems. It's available in the 3rd edition as "John Gill: Master of Rock" in the Climbing Classics series by Stackpole Books. Available at Amazon or other sources.
John Gill
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curt
Nov 19, 2002, 2:23 AM
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junkie,
John Gill is very modest about the difficulty of things he did long ago. This, coupled with the fact that he used a "sliding" (B1/B2) scale of difficuly, makes it a little hard to understand just how hard some of his older problems were.
However, consider this: When John established the Center Route on Red Cross Rock in the Tetons (in the mid 1950s) the hardest climbs in this country were 5.9 or so. Today, the Center Route, done Gill's way rates V9 or so. This equates to solid 5.13 in YDS terms. That represents a full 4 decimal grades harder than climbs anyone else was doing at the time, at least that were documented.
So, for someone today to come along and be as far ahead of the pack as Gill was (in his day) they would have to be establishing 5.19 climbs.
Curt
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jason1
Nov 19, 2002, 3:27 PM
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dude, u got the best problems. they're still really hard... gill egg, double clutch, and i recently got a chance to go to the jenny lake problems in the tetons... classic. just wanted to say thanks for all the great problems. thx. u crush.
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jmlangford
Nov 19, 2002, 6:22 PM
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At 65 he is STILL climbing and doing stuff I can't even attempt. I took this picture of him and Peter Croft last month at the Happy Boulders in Bishop.
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catga86
Nov 19, 2002, 6:24 PM
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I feel like a little girl who just met the backstreet boys... Amazed.... John Gill is da man...
-Cat
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junkie
Nov 19, 2002, 7:22 PM
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Oh my god... I just got a reply to a post from THE living legend of american bouldering.
John,
thank you for your reply. I intent to check out Ament's book as you suggest.
The prime reason that I was inqiring about your accomplishments in detail (I only know the rumours and hearsay) is because there are some young rippers at my home gym who are completely in the dark that a V11 MIGHT have been done before 1990. I'm just trying to get my facts straight so when I give them some history of bouldering I'm accurate. They're good kids, but clueless about the history of climbing.
Thanks for your help!
Knut Rokne
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curt
Nov 19, 2002, 10:32 PM
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junkie,
V11s were certainly done before 1990. Of Gill's routes, the "Groove" problem on the right hand side of the Fatted Calf Boulder comes to mind. John did this sometime in the 1970s (I think) but the exact date will have to come from him. It has only (to my knowledge) been repeated by Jim Holloway. I dont' know if this is V11, but it is at least V10, in my opinion.
Jim Holloway, however, put up at least three boulder problems in Colorado that are at least V11--and probably a good deal harder. none have (again, to the best of my knowedge)been repeated. They are AHR and Slapshot, in Boulder and Meathook at Horsetooth. These were also done in the 70s. So your bet with your friend is pretty safe. In fact, you can tell them that V13 was established before 1980.
Curt
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junkie
Nov 19, 2002, 11:16 PM
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Hi Curt,
Thanks! I knew of Holloways' routes through a lot of reading around. And Fatted calf is mentionned in jgill's bio.
I'm just fishing around for earlier problems.
I STILL find it amazing that Holloway was doing V13 in the freaking 70's...
That means in the last 30 years, the top end of bouldering has only progressed two grades! Sobering thought.
In fact, it took until 98 or so for the first V14 to be put up with Radja.
Man were Gill and Holloway ahead of their time.
K
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mreardon
Nov 19, 2002, 11:35 PM
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It's funny how our misconceptions involving the ratings run so deep in this sport. Just the other day I was so excited to have done a "new" V5 boulder problem at our local spot (Stoney Point) only to find a picture of Bob Kamps on it in 1982. To further slap reality into me, at the end of the day we were working (and barely got) a problem that Chounard put up in 1961!
And it's this way in every aspect of this sport. There are plenty of hard 13 trad routes that were done in the late 70s, early 80s, and a handful of 14c/d sport routes done in the late 80s early 90s. G & H's boulder problems as already mentioned were done 30 years ago, and yet today each of these avenues have only advanced a couple grades harder, but garner so much spray it gets ridiculous.
Thanks for helping us all get this history lesson, and as always, special thanks to the folks that were visionary enough to have been the first to push the standards we all hope to achieve.
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curt
Nov 20, 2002, 4:48 AM
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By the way, that V13 number for Holloway's "Big 3" problems is just a guess. That is exactly why the Nicole and Sharma caliber boulderers really ought to get on these things. I am not suggesting that they could not do them--they may very well do so. But at least then, with a second ascent, we would have a modern day opinion as to how hard the Holloway problems really are.
Curt
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misha
Nov 27, 2002, 5:38 AM
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This is my first post on this forum. John is my idol. His problems were the reason I was put on this earth.
I have a question for John, did you ever climb with Bob Murray?
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lox
Nov 27, 2002, 4:32 PM
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Oh, he loves to field questions from fanboys.
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qacwac
Nov 27, 2002, 6:06 PM
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Climbing is like other sports, as the elite approach the potential of human ability, the gains come slower, smaller, and rarer. For example when Bob Beaman made his historic long jump in the Olympics in Mexico in 1968 it was 23 years before Mike Powell broke it and that was only by 2 inches. It was also once thought impossible to run a sub 4 minute mile. Roger Bannister did it in 1954 (3:59) and today the record is something like 3:43. That's 16 seconds off of 4 minutes which is less than 7% faster over almost 50 years. If you looked at sprinting the improvements would probably be even less.
Now in this I am in no way saying we've reached the human climbing potential or diminishing Gill's or Holloway's accomplishments. Rather they are like Beaman who leaped so far ahead and set the standard so much closer to the limit that they didn't leave too much room for improvement.
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curt
Nov 27, 2002, 6:28 PM
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Seth,
I think your comparison of Gill's and Holloway's bouldering with Beamon's long jump is a good one. One difference though, is that we do know exactly how far Beamon jumped in 1968.
We used to call all of Holloway's "Big 3" problems V10 several years ago (when the hardest problems at Hueco were V9) for lack of a better number. Since then, bouldering standards have gone up but there is still reason to believe that Holloway's hardest problems may be as hard as anything yet done.
I am certain, as in your examples, that someone will eventually eclipse Holloway's feats. But for now--until someone repeats his problems--I am not sure that anyone has.
Curt
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junkie
Nov 27, 2002, 6:43 PM
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Hey Curt,
Why has no-one repeated the big three? Lack of trying or lack of muscles?
Have they seen many attempts?
k
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curt
Nov 27, 2002, 6:55 PM
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junkie,
I think Chris Jones is the expert on that. I will send him an e-mail and see what he has to say. From what I recall, AHR and Meathook have had many attempts by very good boulderers, like Ben Moon, Jerry Moffatt, John Sherman and a bunch of others. These problems are right in the middle of established bouldering areas. Meathook is just left of Left Eliminator at Horsetooth reservior and AHR is near the right end of Cloud Shadow rock on Flagstaff Mountain. Slapshot has probably not seen to many tries. It sits a little off the beaten path above Square Rock on Dinosaur Mountain.
Curt
[ This Message was edited by: curt on 2002-11-27 10:57 ]
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lox
Nov 27, 2002, 6:59 PM
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Those three problems are BURL personified.
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