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mountainstuss
Feb 11, 2009, 3:36 AM
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Diamox for Denali? What do ya'll think?
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skiclimb
Feb 11, 2009, 3:51 AM
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Lot of people do. Might help you avoid a serious problem. Drink more water.
Talk to your doctor.
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tomtom
Feb 11, 2009, 3:52 AM
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Viagra on Denali? What do *you* think?
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i_h8_choss
Feb 11, 2009, 4:07 AM
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mountainstuss wrote: Diamox for Denali? What do ya'll think?
Elevation is different for everybody. Can I ask a personal question? How high have you been? And how many times?
(This post was edited by i_h8_choss on Feb 11, 2009, 4:08 AM)
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doons
Feb 11, 2009, 4:53 AM
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it doesn't make a difference how high he has been or how many times. altitude affects people differently each time they go to altitude, regardless of how many times they do it.
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mountainstuss
Feb 11, 2009, 5:31 AM
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I live at 10,000' and work (ski patrol) up to 13,000'. The highest I have been is on 14ers.
(This post was edited by mountainstuss on Feb 11, 2009, 5:31 AM)
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saphius
Feb 11, 2009, 5:44 AM
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It's lightweight. It can save you a lot of agony and potentially keep you out of danger.
Why not carry it?
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altelis
Feb 11, 2009, 1:00 PM
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Reasons NOT to take diamox:
1) if you have ANY kidney or liver issues
2) you take antidepressants, plan on taking aspirin or caffeine in semi-large amounts
3) its a diuretic- a PAIN IN THE ASS, especially since altitude is also, essentially, a diuretic-- you will have to pee a lot. which is annoying when its COLD and WINDY outside and you may be having trouble
sleeping anyways
4) you have to take up 24-48 hrs before ascent and 48 hrs after ascent- its not something like asprin for a headache where if you get a headache you take asprin. rather it is a prophylactic. this isn't really a reason "not to take it", just a heads up. you dont/shouldn't go with it "just in case i feel sick". it CAN help in that case, but not as well as you'd hope. so if you buy it and bring it, you may as well take it to get its full effects.
this isn't to say i'm against diamox, just some well rounded info to help you make your decision. my best advice: ask your physician. they prob wont know right away and will have to research/ call another physician w/ experience. but thats your best bet seeing as we dont know your med hx
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tb69hikeclimb
Feb 11, 2009, 2:14 PM
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doons wrote: it doesn't make a difference how high he has been or how many times. altitude affects people differently each time they go to altitude, regardless of how many times they do it.
Short answer bring it (after consulting with your Dr.)
I have been to Denali 4 time(summit once) and have always brought it.(never personally used it) Granted I am usually the medical staff for most expeditions I have been on.
Long answer is
The surounding atmosphere is is about 20% oxygen
79%nitrogen 1% other gasses(mostly farts)
Partial pressure of oxygen,(pO2) at sea level is 20% of 760mmHg=152mmHg.
Partial pressure of Nitrogen(pN2) is 80% of 760mmHg=608mmHg (608+152=760)
With pO2 of 152 we extract 100%(nearly) of oxygen.
We have a blood oxygen saturation of close to 100%
As you gain elevation, the partial pressure of gasses does notchange, but quanity/availability of oxygen does.
AT 20320+/- ft atmospheric pressure is less than half the pressure at sea level your blood oxygen saturation levles will drop to about 75%(normally a trip to the hospital for most people)
Oxygen is essential for all living things on earth. You need it. Oxygen needs to get to your cells for you to function.
Oxygen comes into the Lungs-> Alveoli->hemoglobin
Hemoglobin molecules are in the red blood cells. Hemoglobin contains iron....AVOID ANEMIA more a concern for women but men suffer from it too. have it checked and take an iron suppliment. Oxygen attaches to the iron to be transported through out the body. Oxygen is used to burn glucose to produce ATP(adenosine triphosphate) ATP is how we store energy. We pay for what we ask our body to do with ATP.
GOLDEN RULES OF ASCENT
*Ill at altitude= AMS (until proven different)
*Don't go up until symptoms go down
*Continue down until you have relief of symptoms
*Climb high sleep low
sorry if this sounds like the ramblings of a mad man
just learn the signs of AMS (HAPE,HACE,HAFE)
HAFE you will figure out on your own(he he)
and take the diamox(but only take it if you need it)
(This post was edited by tb69hikeclimb on Feb 11, 2009, 2:18 PM)
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adeptus
Feb 11, 2009, 5:43 PM
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altelis
Feb 11, 2009, 5:58 PM
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I might not agree with every word you write, but brother, i fuc&ing love your style brother.
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roy_hinkley_jr
Feb 11, 2009, 6:05 PM
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adeptus wrote: Using Diamox is CHEATING! It's no different than taking EPO in the Tour de France.
If you believe that, you don't know much about either.
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graniteboy
Feb 11, 2009, 6:05 PM
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Here's the main reason NOT to take diamox, and instead actually use your brain instead of a pharmaceutical and allow enough time to acclimate:
A pretty significant proportion of the population (including myself) experience extremity tingling and or numbness when taking diamox. Given the fact that on Denali, you're already concerned about whether or not you can feel your fingers and toes, I would recommend not taking Diamox UNLESS you are a member of a SAR team that is put in a situation where you are forced to go fom sea level to high on the mountain to save some Gumby's ass.
So, No, Rebecca, there really isn't a pharmaceutical Santa Claus who can make up for the fact that you haven't paid your dues and acclimated suficiently.
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yves
Feb 11, 2009, 9:03 PM
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Yes, I would tend to agree with all what has been said before. You should not take diamox except in emergency .
I have done more than 11 expeditions and spent more than 10 nights higher than 7000 meters including reaching 7950m on Cho Oyu and 7500m on Nanga Parbat and the top of Pic Lenine at 7120 or else and never used it ... and I am still doing very well !!
As it has been written before, nothing beats a good acclimitization. Unfortunately, I have been three or four times on McKinley and it seems there are a lot of US who thinks it is mandatory.
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milesenoell
Feb 11, 2009, 10:08 PM
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adeptus wrote: Using Diamox is CHEATING! It's no different than taking EPO in the Tour de France.
well, maybe a little different since Diamox isn't all that likely to kill healthy athletes like EPO is so well known for.
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climbingaggie03
Feb 11, 2009, 10:09 PM
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I think if you live at 10,000, work ski patrol, and take your time when climbing denali, that you shouldn't need diamox.
That said, I've gone from sea level straight to 7,000 feet, and started climbing a 14er, without diamox, I got AMS every time, with diamox I've never had a problem. Even with spending the night at 12,000 feet less than 24 hours after leaving sea level I slept well and had no AMS symptoms.
So Diamox does work (IME) but like altitude, everyone experiences it differently YMMV
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graniteboy
Feb 12, 2009, 12:58 AM
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climbingaggie03 wrote: That said, I've gone from sea level straight to 7,000 feet, and started climbing a 14er, without diamox, I got AMS every time, with diamox I've never had a problem. Even with spending the night at 12,000 feet less than 24 hours after leaving sea level I slept well and had no AMS symptoms.
So, in your repeated experience of going from sea level to attempt those Colorado 14ers and "getting acute mountain sickness every time", did you ever stop to consider that maybe, just maybe, there was a teensy eensy possibility that doing so was maybe not the smartest idea?
Just asking
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skiclimb
Feb 12, 2009, 2:50 AM
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adeptus wrote: Using Diamox is CHEATING! It's no different than taking EPO in the Tour de France. You might as well hire a sherpa to carry a couple of bottles of oxygen for you.. Carrying Dex on the other hand is only logical first aid for high altitude emergencies. I seriously don't understand that people can claim to have climbed something without mentioning that they used Diamox. It right up there with artificial oxygen.
Yes I agree. Using technology for safety in climbing is rediculous.
(This post was edited by skiclimb on Feb 12, 2009, 2:51 AM)
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csproul
Feb 12, 2009, 3:43 AM
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yves wrote: Yes, I would tend to agree with all what has been said before. You should not take diamox except in emergency . .
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rokdoc
Feb 12, 2009, 4:54 AM
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tb69hikeclimb wrote: As you gain elevation, the partial pressure of gasses does notchange, but quanity/availability of oxygen does.
The barometric pressure drops with altitude and the proportion of oxygen stays the same, so by definition the partial pressure of oxygen decreases with altitude.
csproul wrote: it makes beer taste horrible!
Absolutely, one of the few accurate things about Diamox so said to this point.
As others have said, Diamox is not at all useful in an emergency (HAPE or HACE). It is good for is taking the edge off mild AMS--perhaps helping you get a slightly better night of sleep when you first get to “high altitude”. It may prevent or lessen AMS, but it will not keep it from getting worse if you go higher without further acclimatization. It will not prevent HAPE or HACE. It is a diuretic, but a weak one and most people won’t notice the difference in their urine output with or without some Diamox on board. As for Diamox being a way to cheat, in my mind it just doesn’t make enough of a difference to matter. Is a caffeinated energy gel cheating? As performance enhancing drugs, I would put Diamox and Caffeine in the same range of potency.
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climbingaggie03
Feb 12, 2009, 7:30 AM
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graniteboy wrote: climbingaggie03 wrote: That said, I've gone from sea level straight to 7,000 feet, and started climbing a 14er, without diamox, I got AMS every time, with diamox I've never had a problem. Even with spending the night at 12,000 feet less than 24 hours after leaving sea level I slept well and had no AMS symptoms. So, in your repeated experience of going from sea level to attempt those Colorado 14ers and "getting acute mountain sickness every time", did you ever stop to consider that maybe, just maybe, there was a teensy eensy possibility that doing so was maybe not the smartest idea? Just asking
Nope, I always knew that it wasn't the best idea, but when you have limited time like spring break, there's no way you'll be able to take the neccessary time to aclimatize properly so if you're a flatlander it's all you've got. I trained ultra hard and suffered the AMS, the only part that really bothers me is the ataxia and the splitting headache.
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adeptus
Feb 12, 2009, 7:31 AM
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graniteboy
Feb 12, 2009, 5:28 PM
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Someone brought up Caffeine above, and that reminded me that a number of the folks doing Speed ascents of the 8K meter peaks (eg French climber Christophe Profit) have used coffee as a means of avoiding HAPE/HACE.
I was recently made aware of the fact that a number of biochemical studies show that Caffeine has effects on the Calcium channel of our cells, and if I remember rightly, the misfunctioning of the calcium channel is one of the primary culprits in the creation of Altitude related illnesses. I'm not a biochemist, but maybe some of you biochem/physiochem types can chime in here on this subject.
I have personally used big doses of Coffee to do UC Davis to UC Davis one day ascents of Shasta, with no altitude illness, when I was also strapped for time and couldn't acclimate properly. That's about as "Sea level to 14k" as it gets. Just brought this up as a Hint to Climbingaggie03, and possibly a shift in direction for our the way our OP might tackle the big bad snow walk up Denali.
Nonetheless, I still advocate acclimation.
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angry
Feb 12, 2009, 5:44 PM
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I've been on only two big peaks, Alpamayo and Hauscaran Sur, One just shy of 20K and the other 22.5K.
I took diamox.
I don't care if it was cheating, I spent a lot of money to make the trip and I had limited time to climb, I also had no idea when I'd make it back (if ever). To be able to work a little better at elevation a few days earlier seemed like a decent trade off to me.
Not pure but really nothing out of the ordinary. This is consistent with EPO in cycling to those drawing parallels.
Among the world class ascents with world class climbers or anyone out there garnering a name for themselves, I'd like to see a disclosure on pharmaceuticals. For those with limited time and limited money, they only have to answer to themselves.
For what it's worth, I was pretty worthless at elevation until about 2 weeks into the trip. By the time I was finally functioning well up there, I'd long stopped taking the Diamox.
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roy_hinkley_jr
Feb 12, 2009, 5:52 PM
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adeptus wrote: Diamox is a drug that is directly enhancing your performance at altitude.
FALSE. Diamox eases symptoms but it does nothing for enhancing performance. Do some homework instead of spewing BS.
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