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Aequitas
May 8, 2009, 1:50 AM
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I'm not exactly sure what they are called but I'm talking about the fixed anchors on sport crags that have a large type of biner on them. I've always seen people simply clipping into them and toproping and lowering through these anchors. I've heard them called them shuts or shut anchors but I don't know if thats correct. My point is that I've heard people recently saying that it is not safe and I was looking for a little more info. i tried searching but because I don'k know what they are called it returned nothing. any info or instruction would be appreciated
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Aequitas
May 8, 2009, 2:10 AM
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No but they are similar. I did find the ones on the website you provided. herehttp://www.fixeusa.com/images/products/hangers/044B-044_112x150.gif
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styndall
May 8, 2009, 2:11 AM
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Rapping from them is fine. Lowering from them is easier and safer.
Top-roping through them adds some wear and is a bit rude, but it's not going to be unsafe.
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Chinchen
May 8, 2009, 2:14 AM
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I had a guy suggest that it was rude at J tree. He said locals like him....bla bla bla. I told him to STFU. Everyone is a local somewhere. All fixed equipment is placed to be used up and replaced. Get over it.
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docburner
May 8, 2009, 2:25 AM
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Generally if someone puts up an anchor that you can clip into it is intended to be lowered off of. The reasoning is that this is much safer then setting up to rap, you don't even go off belay or anything, and less people will die at the cost of wearing some community gear.
If you decide to donate to the crag use Fish's Mussy hooks, they are probaby cheaper ($5) and will last longer:
http://www.fishproducts.com
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acorneau
May 8, 2009, 2:35 AM
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In our neck of the woods, it's generally accepted that you top-rope using your own biners/slings/draws and the last person down gets lowered off the sport clips or super shuts, thus reducing the wear and tear to a minimum.
However, I catch the uneducated top-roping though them all the time. No, it is not dangerous, it just puts more wear and tear on the hardware.
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Factor2
May 8, 2009, 2:46 AM
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Chinchen wrote: I had a guy suggest that it was rude at J tree. He said locals like him....bla bla bla. I told him to STFU. Everyone is a local somewhere. All fixed equipment is placed to be used up and replaced. Get over it.
you shouldn't toprope off of fixed gear. Put your own biners on the anchor, and then the last person can lower or rap off the anchors. Toproping through shuts is just ignorant.
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Aequitas
May 8, 2009, 2:55 AM
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So correct me if i'm wrong, but the issue then is the wear on the gear not necessarily safety.
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coolcat83
May 8, 2009, 2:58 AM
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acorneau wrote: In our neck of the woods, it's generally accepted that you top-rope using your own biners/slings/draws and the last person down gets lowered off the sport clips or super shuts, thus reducing the wear and tear to a minimum. However, I catch the uneducated top-roping though them all the time. No, it is not dangerous, it just puts more wear and tear on the hardware.
same here . to replace the fixed stuff may cost as much as your biners ans slings or draws, and someone has to buy the stuff bring it up there ect. i think it's just a better practice to use your stuff
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Chinchen
May 8, 2009, 3:23 AM
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And if the last one is my kid who doesnt know how to be cleaning anchors and weighs 45 pounds? (Which was the senario)
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barkandbite
May 8, 2009, 3:31 AM
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i think it's good to practice rigging your own stuff and cleaning it off. in my experience, there is usually someone in the group that is excited to anchor in at the top clean the gear and rap down.
That way when you get to an anchor that not so strong looking, you/they are well versed.
This could be old hat 2 you.
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granite_grrl
May 8, 2009, 3:46 AM
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Chinchen wrote: And if the last one is my kid who doesnt know how to be cleaning anchors and weighs 45 pounds? (Which was the senario)
A kid of that weight won't add much wear to the anchors, it's just bad to make a practice of it.
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Terry2124
May 8, 2009, 4:01 AM
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granite_grrl wrote: Chinchen wrote: And if the last one is my kid who doesnt know how to be cleaning anchors and weighs 45 pounds? (Which was the senario) Make him the second last person? The leader can unclip/clean the gear on his way down. A kid of that weight won't add much wear to the anchors, it's just bad to make a practice of it.
Agree, it would be the best way.
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rtwilli4
May 8, 2009, 4:08 AM
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I don't understand why you guys are saying it's safer to lower than it is to rap? Yea you go off belay but it's not like your hanging on a shitty anchor... if that were the case then the whole thing would be unsafe no matter how you came down.
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marc801
May 8, 2009, 4:20 AM
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docburner wrote: The reasoning is that this is much safer then setting up to rap, you don't even go off belay or anything, and less people will die at the cost of wearing some community gear.
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marc801
May 8, 2009, 4:21 AM
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rtwilli4 wrote: I don't understand why you guys are saying it's safer to lower than it is to rap?
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clc
May 8, 2009, 4:37 AM
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Most accidents that I hear about happen because of poor communication. ie. on belay, off belay, secure.....
Clipping the top anchor an getting lowered avoids all of this. If your going to TR the route , you should use your own draws.
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rtwilli4
May 8, 2009, 4:49 AM
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clc wrote: Most accidents that I hear about happen because of poor communication. ie. on belay, off belay, secure..... Clipping the top anchor an getting lowered avoids all of this. If your going to TR the route , you should use your own draws.
I get it... and I concur.
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MS1
May 8, 2009, 1:34 PM
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Chinchen wrote: And if the last one is my kid who doesnt know how to be cleaning anchors and weighs 45 pounds? (Which was the senario)
Why not climb it quickly yourself and clean it properly, after lowering your kid through your own gear? That's what I do when climbing with friends who don't know how to clean.
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Gmburns2000
May 8, 2009, 1:50 PM
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Aequitas wrote: So correct me if i'm wrong, but the issue then is the wear on the gear not necessarily safety.
correct
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Gmburns2000
May 8, 2009, 1:53 PM
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rtwilli4 wrote: I don't understand why you guys are saying it's safer to lower than it is to rap? Yea you go off belay but it's not like your hanging on a shitty anchor... if that were the case then the whole thing would be unsafe no matter how you came down.
I think it's the transition people are talking about. If you simply clip and lower, then you're not taking yourself off-belay and anchoring yourself in. It's not about the quality of the anchor, but the additional steps that need to be taken to rap.
Sure, it's probably easy and safe to rap, but why add links to the sytem when they are unecessary?
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csproul
May 8, 2009, 2:13 PM
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Chinchen wrote: And if the last one is my kid who doesnt know how to be cleaning anchors and weighs 45 pounds? (Which was the senario)
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retr2327
May 8, 2009, 2:16 PM
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I get the theory, but I have my doubts about the practice. Sure, top-roping through aluminum rap rings involves significant wear (and eventually, significant risk), but I'd think that most shuts are a) much beefier; and b) made of much tougher metal.
Will there be some wear? Sure, eventually. But will the wear occur faster than degradation of the bolt-hole, etc.? Not so clear. No anchor is good forever.
It seems like it's a good idea to use your own gear b/c it's generally a good practice under other circumstances (especially in trad areas, where anchors may be used for multiple routes or rappels), but I can't see getting worked up about some group not doing it.
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cantbuymefriends
May 8, 2009, 2:23 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: Aequitas wrote: So correct me if i'm wrong, but the issue then is the wear on the gear not necessarily safety. correct
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