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mesomorf
Dec 19, 2002, 1:51 PM
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Simul-rapping: valid technique or for emergencies only?
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kalcario
Dec 19, 2002, 2:14 PM
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how about: valid technique for creating emergencies?
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mrswix
May 8, 2009, 5:30 AM
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hahaha that was really funny.
but id still like to know too.
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ddt
May 8, 2009, 1:06 PM
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I moved this thread from suggestions to general.
DDT
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nthusiastj
May 8, 2009, 1:08 PM
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You could DO a survey, you know.
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johnwesely
May 8, 2009, 1:08 PM
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then make a survey on simul rappelling.
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rtwilli4
May 8, 2009, 1:46 PM
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valid technique for any time two people want to rap. I do it all the time.
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Gmburns2000
May 8, 2009, 1:47 PM
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I'd be interested to know what folks think, too.
I have a few friends who really like the idea. For them, it's fast, efficient, and easy. I've done it a couple of times, but only when fairly close to the ground and off bolts. I've been heavier than each person I've simul-rapped with, too.
However, I'm always hesitant. It seems the added weight could add to the risk, and having only one strand of rope makes the rap potentially more difficult to arrest if something should happen mid-rap.
What are the concerns or dangers? Or is it something that is simply less safe than rapping one at a time but still generally OK to do?
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dreday3000
May 8, 2009, 2:28 PM
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I do it if I'm in a time crunch. Don't like the reduction in friction from being on one rope but if you're careful its plenty safe.
Seems to me if you intend to use simui rapping in an emergency situation you better be comfortable doing in a regular environment as well. Good practice for when the shit really starts hitting the fan.
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rsmillbern
May 8, 2009, 2:37 PM
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For me it depends on the situation. On slab with bolts I do often. I like to tether to my partner and make sure to tie knots (most cases) in the ends of the rope.
It also depends on who I am climbing with to some degree.
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fxgranite
May 8, 2009, 2:42 PM
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If I'm trying to save time I'll do it on longer routes. Definitly not for emergencies only.
I don't think I've ever simulrapped an overhang but as long as I was of similar stature to my partner I don't think I'd have a problem with it.
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kennoyce
May 8, 2009, 2:47 PM
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I do it when I'm in a hurry, The only downside is that there is less friction, but it's not that bad. My wife is my normal climbing partner, and I weigh more than her, so my wife raps on the strand with the knot, and I rap on the strand without it.
I just ordered an ATC-Guide (I just use a normal ATC), and I'm wondering how the high friction mode will work for simul-rapping, I'm thinking that it will be much easier.
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brotherbbock
May 8, 2009, 3:08 PM
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fxgranite wrote: If I'm trying to save time I'll do it on longer routes. Definitly not for emergencies only. I don't think I've ever simulrapped an overhang but as long as I was of similar stature to my partner I don't think I'd have a problem with it.
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Gmburns2000
May 8, 2009, 3:11 PM
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What do you folks think about the anchor quality? I rap off the slings in the 'Gunks all the time, but I'm hesitant to simul-rap off them. I'm sure they're plenty strong, but if you double the weight...
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rtwilli4
May 8, 2009, 3:18 PM
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There are more risks involved. Obviously you have to communicate with your partner and both stay on rappel until you are both safe. Tie knots in the end of the rope... use prusik... there are ways to back it up just like a regular rappel.
kennoyce wrote: I do it when I'm in a hurry, The only downside is that there is less friction, but it's not that bad. My wife is my normal climbing partner, and I weigh more than her, so my wife raps on the strand with the knot, and I rap on the strand without it. I just ordered an ATC-Guide (I just use a normal ATC), and I'm wondering how the high friction mode will work for simul-rapping, I'm thinking that it will be much easier.
What knot do you use at the anchor? Small rings are easy to protect with a knot but what if you are rapping off an anchor with huge rings?
I think you'll be happy with the guide. It provides a lot of friction because of the teeth, but more so because the slots will be a lot narrower than a regular ATC. I have a 10mil rope and there is a noticeable difference between the Guide and a regular ATC when lead belaying because of the narrower slots.
However, the new Petzl Reverso is lighter and has better designed friction slots. They bight hard on even 7.8mil double ropes. I have only used a Reverso on double ropes so I can't comment on how it works with larger ropes... but I was REALLY impressed with the V slots, and how they are designed for all size ropes, while the ATC Guide doesn't seem to bight as hard on double ropes.
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Crack_Addict_Ty
May 8, 2009, 3:27 PM
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kennoyce wrote: I just ordered an ATC-Guide (I just use a normal ATC), and I'm wondering how the high friction mode will work for simul-rapping, I'm thinking that it will be much easier.
I've never simul-rapped anything, but I have rapped on a single rope using my ATC-Guide (top-roping a route over water). For regualr rapping, I always use the low friction mode since it is much smoother and quicker. The high friction mode is very high friction which is really nice when you want to rap slowly or hang for a while for some reason.
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markc
May 8, 2009, 3:32 PM
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I simul-rapped for the first time after climbing Royal Arches last season. My partner and I agreed to share ropes with the party behind us on the rappels, and four people were able to rappel almost as quickly as two going solo.
Tracking the pull strand and keeping the heavier partner on the opposite was easy once we got in the habit. (All anchors were too small to pass the knot.) I wondered how the single-strand rappel would go, but there was plenty of friction with a 10.5 cord. Gloves may be good if you're heavier or if the cord is thinner. As had been said, clear communication and staying on rappel until both members are secured at a stance is vital.
Having done a simul-rappel, it's not a technique I plan to adopt for shorter locations. If you're doing two or three rappels, the time saved isn't going to be huge. If I'm ever looking at a significant number of full-length rappels in the future, I'd definitely consider it.
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curt
May 8, 2009, 3:35 PM
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The only times I have ever simul-rapped were in the absence of an anchor--i.e. a "Needles" style rappel. In those cases you don't have much option--other than leaving something behind, which violates the local ethic. This seems fairly safe to me--as long as a few basic precautions are taken, like making sure that both parties weight the rope simultaneously and that the rope runs across the top of the formation through a notch or someplace where it can't easily become dislodged.
Curt
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kennoyce
May 8, 2009, 3:51 PM
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In reply to: What knot do you use at the anchor? Small rings are easy to protect with a knot but what if you are rapping off an anchor with huge rings?
I just use the standard EDK. As for the Huge rings scenario, I have never encountered this in practice, but I always carry a quicklink with me in case I encounter a rap station with no rings, so I guess I could just use the quicklink along with the big ring to keep the knot from pulling through.
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acorneau
May 8, 2009, 3:55 PM
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I have simul-rapped a several times: a few times in the gym while teaching my GF; once outdoors with my GF (after the practice in the gym); and once getting off a large boulder/rock with no anchors or down climb (we rapped off opposite sides of the boulder and then pulled the rope).
I'll toss out another twist to the conversation:
How many of you have done or used tandem rappels?
Again, I have taught/practiced this with my GF in the gym as another rappelling technique. It's especially appropriate for an injured partner that may not be able to handle their own rappelling control (i.e. a broken arm or rope-burned hands).
(This post was edited by acorneau on May 8, 2009, 4:00 PM)
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fxgranite
May 8, 2009, 4:20 PM
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brotherbbock wrote: fxgranite wrote: If I'm trying to save time I'll do it on longer routes. Definitly not for emergencies only. I don't think I've ever simulrapped an overhang but as long as I was of similar stature to my partner I don't think I'd have a problem with it. It is the only way to go sometimes. I have done routes where even when we were simul-rapping it still took us the better part of 4-5 hours to get down.
Yeah the last time I did it was on the 23 pitch Time Wave Zero down in El Potrero. Still took us 3 hours or so.
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ryanb
May 8, 2009, 4:56 PM
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I've done it a few times but recently I picked up a 7mm tag line for use on double rope raps and i don't think i would do it with that set up.
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rock_fencer
May 8, 2009, 5:08 PM
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I have both tandemed and simul rapped off everything from a 10.2 to a 7.7 tag line with people that out weigh me by more than 40lbs. You have to be carefull have good communication, use the knot to your advantage as others mentioned, and generally be carefull like a normal rap.
The tandems a little ackward at first and i probably wont use it on a regular basis, but i simulrap all the time to save on time on multi routes ifand only if its a straight forward rap off good anchors.
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potreroed
May 8, 2009, 5:08 PM
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Here in El Potrero Chico where there are lots of long routes with good bolted anchors and no walk-offs, simul-rapping is the standard. Ideally each person will use a gri-gri or a prussick back-up. The key to safety is good communication. We usually don't tie knots in the end of the ropes here because there is too much vegetation and large flakes for a knot to get stuck on.
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rsmillbern
May 8, 2009, 6:13 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: What do you folks think about the anchor quality? I rap off the slings in the 'Gunks all the time, but I'm hesitant to simul-rap off them. I'm sure they're plenty strong, but if you double the weight...
Slings are always going to be a judgment call I think. In general slings are going to be fine, but with weather, age, ect....
Hard to have a black and white answer on that one I think
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