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desertwanderer81
Jun 3, 2009, 7:33 PM
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zeke_sf wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: caughtinside wrote: Ok noobs. Clearly it's a death rig. classic. If you use a sliding x YOU WILL DIE. The opposite is also true. To the OP: I usually check the toprope setup as I climb up to the anchor before deciding whether or not to soil my drawers. Sometimes in the interest of redundancy I just soil them beforehand, regardless of the anchor setup. I find that checking out the anchor before climbing on it doesn't instill the necessary sense of drawer shitting outrage that I generally aim for. Needless to say, I am not invited to many parties.
I was being sarcastic......
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hanginaround
Jun 3, 2009, 7:35 PM
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I climbed on some (old school) guys TR set-up at Josh once, got to the top to find his anchor consisted of 1, 12” sling over a horn. Hey!! It didn’t fail..
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zchandran
Jun 3, 2009, 7:42 PM
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vegastradguy wrote: meh, not really. as long as its clipped to one bolt, i'll TR on it. (fyi- for TR set ups on bolts, a pair of quickdraws is more than sufficient as an anchor- cordlette/sliding X/etc is all overkill and takes far longer to set up with no added advantage)
Remember I'm a newb, so from my viewpoint 90% of the effort is surviving without a serious injury long enough to get good (and develop judgment).
Anyway, I had just finished reading Long's Anchors book and was trying to keep all the principles in my head - so the single quickdraw was a shock. I'd expected an equalette, sliding-x, anything...
Now when i set up a toprope using two bolts I use a pretied quad with a locking biner on both bolts, and 3 nonlocking ovals to run the rope through. Complete overkill I know, but if you're ever at the crag with me you're not going to complain that I take safety lightly... 
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iron106
Jun 3, 2009, 7:48 PM
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zchandran wrote: vegastradguy wrote: meh, not really. as long as its clipped to one bolt, i'll TR on it. (fyi- for TR set ups on bolts, a pair of quickdraws is more than sufficient as an anchor- cordlette/sliding X/etc is all overkill and takes far longer to set up with no added advantage) Remember I'm a newb, so from my viewpoint 90% of the effort is surviving without a serious injury long enough to get good (and develop judgment). Anyway, I had just finished reading Long's Anchors book and was trying to keep all the principles in my head - so the single quickdraw was a shock. I'd expected an equalette, sliding-x, anything... Now when i set up a toprope using two bolts I use a pretied quad with a locking biner on both bolts, and 3 nonlocking ovals to run the rope through. Complete overkill I know, but if you're ever at the crag with me you're not going to complain that I take safety lightly...
Why do you feel it is any safer than just using say, 2 2' slings instead of the quad, when you are just using 2 bolts?
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Brhino90
Jun 3, 2009, 7:51 PM
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I won't climb on someone elses TR setup, not saying that mine are so bombproof that no one elses will suffice, but I'm much more comfortable in tying my own knots, using my own anchor points and opposing my own biners. I have to admit, I've used some kind of shady anchor points...horns, trees smaller than should be used, but I always have a back up. I always equalize my load before I jump on it, so when I take that first fall my webbing slips and shares the shit out of me. It's not that difficult to tie my own anchors and it's not that difficult to climb a route that's not so crowded. Just my .02
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knieveltech
Jun 3, 2009, 7:51 PM
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socalclimber805 wrote: When you show up to a popular top rope route, one with bolts at the top, do you always check how the anchor was rigged before hopping on someone else's rope? I am specifically talking about top rope only routes, not when someone led the climb and you are tope roping off of quickdraws or carbiners that later have to be cleaned. Having recently learned how to setup top rope anchors with the regular rigging methods, i.e cordellete, equallete, and sliding x, I am much more concious of jumping on someone else's rope without looking at how the anchor was rigged first. Is it rude to ask how it was setup and nicely quiz the person about their setup experience? How do you guys do it?
Simple: If I get a chance to look at the anchor before hand (maybe while cleaning one of mine or whatever) I'll consider it. Otherwise if I don't know from past experience that the person that set up the anchor knows wtf they're about, I don't get on the rope.
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smithygreg
Jun 3, 2009, 8:01 PM
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Personally, I wouldn't want to climb with anyone I wouldn't feel comfortable asking those questions to...And I definitely wouldn't trust a strangers gear.
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swoopee
Jun 3, 2009, 8:05 PM
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I rarely ever check, otherwise I'd probably never get to climb. 
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zchandran
Jun 3, 2009, 8:08 PM
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iron106 wrote: zchandran wrote: vegastradguy wrote: meh, not really. as long as its clipped to one bolt, i'll TR on it. (fyi- for TR set ups on bolts, a pair of quickdraws is more than sufficient as an anchor- cordlette/sliding X/etc is all overkill and takes far longer to set up with no added advantage) Remember I'm a newb, so from my viewpoint 90% of the effort is surviving without a serious injury long enough to get good (and develop judgment). Anyway, I had just finished reading Long's Anchors book and was trying to keep all the principles in my head - so the single quickdraw was a shock. I'd expected an equalette, sliding-x, anything... Now when i set up a toprope using two bolts I use a pretied quad with a locking biner on both bolts, and 3 nonlocking ovals to run the rope through. Complete overkill I know, but if you're ever at the crag with me you're not going to complain that I take safety lightly... Why do you feel it is any safer than just using say, 2 2' slings instead of the quad, when you are just using 2 bolts?
Because the quad is more resistant to dumb mistakes that I might make. The whole thing is assembled with all the knots tied and checked by someone else. The biners are all in place. All I have to do is clip the 2 locking biners and run the rope through the ovals, and it's done.
The hardest part of being a newb in rock climbing is the possibly dangerous stuff that no one has thought to tell you. I remember reminding a private at the range about "pop no kick" as part of my safety spiel, and she had never heard of it. In the voluminous safety training she had received about muzzle control, trigger management, and clearing the weapon properly, it had slipped through the cracks.
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vegastradguy
Jun 3, 2009, 8:12 PM
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zchandran wrote: vegastradguy wrote: meh, not really. as long as its clipped to one bolt, i'll TR on it. (fyi- for TR set ups on bolts, a pair of quickdraws is more than sufficient as an anchor- cordlette/sliding X/etc is all overkill and takes far longer to set up with no added advantage) Remember I'm a newb, so from my viewpoint 90% of the effort is surviving without a serious injury long enough to get good (and develop judgment). Anyway, I had just finished reading Long's Anchors book and was trying to keep all the principles in my head - so the single quickdraw was a shock. I'd expected an equalette, sliding-x, anything... Now when i set up a toprope using two bolts I use a pretied quad with a locking biner on both bolts, and 3 nonlocking ovals to run the rope through. Complete overkill I know, but if you're ever at the crag with me you're not going to complain that I take safety lightly...
a pair of draws satisfies all of Long's requirements for a solid, redundant, equalized, non-extending anchor setup. if you're really anal, put lockers on the bottom of the dogbones, but its not necessary- two non-lockers = one locker.
also, i'm not a safety slouch- i am not compromising safety in any way by using a pair of draws- but hey, whatever floats your boat and lets you climb without worry.
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jt512
Jun 3, 2009, 8:14 PM
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zchandran wrote: iron106 wrote: zchandran wrote: vegastradguy wrote: meh, not really. as long as its clipped to one bolt, i'll TR on it. (fyi- for TR set ups on bolts, a pair of quickdraws is more than sufficient as an anchor- cordlette/sliding X/etc is all overkill and takes far longer to set up with no added advantage) Remember I'm a newb, so from my viewpoint 90% of the effort is surviving without a serious injury long enough to get good (and develop judgment). Anyway, I had just finished reading Long's Anchors book and was trying to keep all the principles in my head - so the single quickdraw was a shock. I'd expected an equalette, sliding-x, anything... Now when i set up a toprope using two bolts I use a pretied quad with a locking biner on both bolts, and 3 nonlocking ovals to run the rope through. Complete overkill I know, but if you're ever at the crag with me you're not going to complain that I take safety lightly... Why do you feel it is any safer than just using say, 2 2' slings instead of the quad, when you are just using 2 bolts? Because the quad is more resistant to dumb mistakes that I might make. The whole thing is assembled with all the knots tied and checked by someone else. The biners are all in place. All I have to do is clip the 2 locking biners and run the rope through the ovals, and it's done.
How many dumb mistakes can you make placing one draw on each bolt and clipping the rope into them?
Jay
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limeydave
Jun 3, 2009, 8:19 PM
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It only takes one mistake in this sport and you're dead....hmmm deja vu
I've also TR'd on a single quickdraw on a bolt, working the lower section of a project.
I check em if I don't know them when it comes to other people...
I also let them go first ;)
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dingus
Jun 3, 2009, 8:21 PM
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Its an interesting question and provokes a lot of gut answers that I suspect are, well, bullshit.
I once accepted a belay on someone's top rope rig and when I got to the top of the route I was appalled. I then lowered off without doing anything about it though....
So my gut is - of COURSE I would inspect the anchor!
But WOULD I REALLY???
I thought aboutt that hard - not what I would WANT to do, sitting here at my comfy desk, but would I ACTUALLY DO? If presented with a top rope opportunity at some crag...
I would 'guage the climbers,' rather than try and guess the anchor. And I would not likely try to hike up the back of the cliff to preinspect, no.
If the climbers appear and behave with experienced competence, I would accept their anchor uninspected, if so inclined.
If the climbers are gumbs and noobs I would either preinspect (not likely - would have to be desperate!) or I'd just decline (most likely)
Short answer? I would judge by the climbers and not likely preinspect.
I'm just trying to inject a little reality here....
And sliding Xs are just fine.
DMT
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zchandran
Jun 3, 2009, 8:25 PM
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jt512 wrote: zchandran wrote: iron106 wrote: zchandran wrote: vegastradguy wrote: meh, not really. as long as its clipped to one bolt, i'll TR on it. (fyi- for TR set ups on bolts, a pair of quickdraws is more than sufficient as an anchor- cordlette/sliding X/etc is all overkill and takes far longer to set up with no added advantage) Remember I'm a newb, so from my viewpoint 90% of the effort is surviving without a serious injury long enough to get good (and develop judgment). Anyway, I had just finished reading Long's Anchors book and was trying to keep all the principles in my head - so the single quickdraw was a shock. I'd expected an equalette, sliding-x, anything... Now when i set up a toprope using two bolts I use a pretied quad with a locking biner on both bolts, and 3 nonlocking ovals to run the rope through. Complete overkill I know, but if you're ever at the crag with me you're not going to complain that I take safety lightly... Why do you feel it is any safer than just using say, 2 2' slings instead of the quad, when you are just using 2 bolts? Because the quad is more resistant to dumb mistakes that I might make. The whole thing is assembled with all the knots tied and checked by someone else. The biners are all in place. All I have to do is clip the 2 locking biners and run the rope through the ovals, and it's done. How many dumb mistakes can you make placing one draw on each bolt and clipping the rope into them? Jay
I just don't feel safe with nonlocking carabiners at the bolts. I'd spend too much time worrying about stupid things like the carabiners rotating and unclipping themselves. I know that sounds pretty dumb to you, but you've got a lot more time in than I do.
As I said, I understand the quad is complete overkill, but it's one less thing for me to worry about. I'm definitely not suggesting that it's the best solution for the problem.
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swoopee
Jun 3, 2009, 8:29 PM
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hanginaround wrote: I climbed on some (old school) guys TR set-up at Josh once, got to the top to find his anchor consisted of 1, 12” sling over a horn. Hey!! It didn’t fail..
I'd climb on it. I climbed on one recently that was 2 slings on a horn, that angled toward the direction that a fall would pull, and 1, yes 1, non locking oval. One of the few times I've ever checked before climbing. I looked at it and decided that as long as no one came along and accidentally knocked the slings off the horn that they probably wouldn't slip off when loaded. On a side note, when we started climbing in the 70s, we normally tied in with a bowline, and on a couple of occasions I looked down and noticed that it had come untied at some point during the climb. Fun times. 
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majid_sabet
Jun 3, 2009, 8:29 PM
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If it is CF , I will ask the party to come up so we could go over it and build a better anchor.
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vegastradguy
Jun 3, 2009, 8:32 PM
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zchandran wrote: jt512 wrote: zchandran wrote: iron106 wrote: zchandran wrote: vegastradguy wrote: meh, not really. as long as its clipped to one bolt, i'll TR on it. (fyi- for TR set ups on bolts, a pair of quickdraws is more than sufficient as an anchor- cordlette/sliding X/etc is all overkill and takes far longer to set up with no added advantage) Remember I'm a newb, so from my viewpoint 90% of the effort is surviving without a serious injury long enough to get good (and develop judgment). Anyway, I had just finished reading Long's Anchors book and was trying to keep all the principles in my head - so the single quickdraw was a shock. I'd expected an equalette, sliding-x, anything... Now when i set up a toprope using two bolts I use a pretied quad with a locking biner on both bolts, and 3 nonlocking ovals to run the rope through. Complete overkill I know, but if you're ever at the crag with me you're not going to complain that I take safety lightly... Why do you feel it is any safer than just using say, 2 2' slings instead of the quad, when you are just using 2 bolts? Because the quad is more resistant to dumb mistakes that I might make. The whole thing is assembled with all the knots tied and checked by someone else. The biners are all in place. All I have to do is clip the 2 locking biners and run the rope through the ovals, and it's done. How many dumb mistakes can you make placing one draw on each bolt and clipping the rope into them? Jay I just don't feel safe with nonlocking carabiners at the bolts. I'd spend too much time worrying about stupid things like the carabiners rotating and unclipping themselves. I know that sounds pretty dumb to you, but you've got a lot more time in than I do. As I said, I understand the quad is complete overkill, but it's one less thing for me to worry about. I'm definitely not suggesting that it's the best solution for the problem.
a pair of dogbones with lockers on both ends would also work- a little overkill, but whatever.
you might also take a non-locker and clip it into a bolt and start messing with it and try to unclip it by rotating it- this will give you an idea of just how unlikely this is to occur- especially on a weighted anchor system (the weight of the rope counts- the system is essentially always weighted in some respect)
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cracklover
Jun 3, 2009, 8:34 PM
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jt512 wrote: zchandran wrote: iron106 wrote: zchandran wrote: vegastradguy wrote: meh, not really. as long as its clipped to one bolt, i'll TR on it. (fyi- for TR set ups on bolts, a pair of quickdraws is more than sufficient as an anchor- cordlette/sliding X/etc is all overkill and takes far longer to set up with no added advantage) Remember I'm a newb, so from my viewpoint 90% of the effort is surviving without a serious injury long enough to get good (and develop judgment). Anyway, I had just finished reading Long's Anchors book and was trying to keep all the principles in my head - so the single quickdraw was a shock. I'd expected an equalette, sliding-x, anything... Now when i set up a toprope using two bolts I use a pretied quad with a locking biner on both bolts, and 3 nonlocking ovals to run the rope through. Complete overkill I know, but if you're ever at the crag with me you're not going to complain that I take safety lightly... Why do you feel it is any safer than just using say, 2 2' slings instead of the quad, when you are just using 2 bolts? Because the quad is more resistant to dumb mistakes that I might make. The whole thing is assembled with all the knots tied and checked by someone else. The biners are all in place. All I have to do is clip the 2 locking biners and run the rope through the ovals, and it's done. How many dumb mistakes can you make placing one draw on each bolt and clipping the rope into them? Jay
I know this was meant as a rhetorical question, but there are actually a few dumb things you can do:
- Face both rope-end gates in the same direction, into an obstruction
- clip into badly worn links, or worse yet, tat, rather than into the bolts hangers themselves (as you know, this sad case happened recently)
- use bent-gates or wiregates on the bolt side and orient them such that if the climber goes to the side near the top the gates could get opened.
Just a few examples.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but if you're the sort of person who does things by rote, then Zchandran's point of "I'm a newb, and don't know what I don't know yet" then having a system that already eliminates many of your potential dumbass mistakes is a good thing.
GO
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swoopee
Jun 3, 2009, 8:48 PM
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But one thing I won't climb on, if I notice it before it's too late, is the rope running directly through bolt hangers. You'd be amazed at how many times I've seen this done and thought to myself, "Someone's gonna die today".
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altelis
Jun 3, 2009, 9:05 PM
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cracklover wrote: Situation dependent. If I were climbing in so-cal like you, and the rope was owned by a bunch of stoner patchouli-smelling hippies who looked like extras from a dumb-and-dumber movie, I wouldn't ask them anything, I'd just say "Hey!", do the walk up to the top, check their anchors myself, and come to my own conclusions. But if I were in the Northeast, with a bunch of stick-up-their butt lawyers, scientists, and engineers, who rig everything perfectly, practice their knots and anchors for fun, and could describe in minute detail how each biner on the anchor is screwed "down and out", "opposite and opposed", with 5/8" nylon webbing and yadda yadda, I'll either ask them "What's up there?" or else just size 'em up and call it good. In all seriousness - I make my best guess about the climbers and their experience and go from there. GO
PRICELESS! 5 stars for sure!
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TFin04
Jun 3, 2009, 9:32 PM
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Unfortunately the only outdoor crag in Michigan is a top rope only set up.
Parking is at the top of the cliff and you walk down the side to get to the bottom.
The tradition is to find an open spot, drop your rope, then head to the ground where everyone borrows everyone elses set ups. There are a limited number of routes here and it would be extremely time consuming to set a new route every time you wanted to move. The more popular routes especially have long waiting periods.
I will wait until all the routes I wish to climb for that day are set, head to the top, and inspect them all myself. Most times they are set very well, but there have been a few occasions when I refuse a rope and tell the owners why. Some are new to the sport and some are just stupid.
I always anchor with webbing that is equalized and has three separate anchor points. Most people only use two but some use more. I've been known to add an extra strap to a route I want to climb and nobody ever cares. Ropes are typically in pretty good shape (and MUCH better than the local gym ropes) so that usually isn't an issue.
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cracklover
Jun 3, 2009, 9:43 PM
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altelis wrote: cracklover wrote: Situation dependent. If I were climbing in so-cal like you, and the rope was owned by a bunch of stoner patchouli-smelling hippies who looked like extras from a dumb-and-dumber movie, I wouldn't ask them anything, I'd just say "Hey!", do the walk up to the top, check their anchors myself, and come to my own conclusions. But if I were in the Northeast, with a bunch of stick-up-their butt lawyers, scientists, and engineers, who rig everything perfectly, practice their knots and anchors for fun, and could describe in minute detail how each biner on the anchor is screwed "down and out", "opposite and opposed", with 5/8" nylon webbing and yadda yadda, I'll either ask them "What's up there?" or else just size 'em up and call it good. In all seriousness - I make my best guess about the climbers and their experience and go from there. GO PRICELESS! 5 stars for sure!
Thanks Altelis, I aim to please!
Basically, I guess I'd do the same thing as Dingus. Funny, since he's a California hippy, and I'm a New England stick-up-my-ass.
G
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curt
Jun 3, 2009, 10:11 PM
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azstephen wrote: caughtinside wrote: the sliding x is fine. No
Yes.
Curt
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Adk
Jun 3, 2009, 10:24 PM
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curt wrote: azstephen wrote: caughtinside wrote: the sliding x is fine. No Yes. Curt
Yes
I check almost everyones before hoping on a TR set-up.
Locally manytimes I check new climber's set-ups. I've helped to fix many "You're gunna die" anchors.
I've always gotten a big thanks.
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zeke_sf
Jun 4, 2009, 12:11 AM
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desertwanderer81 wrote: zeke_sf wrote: desertwanderer81 wrote: caughtinside wrote: Ok noobs. Clearly it's a death rig. classic. If you use a sliding x YOU WILL DIE. The opposite is also true. To the OP: I usually check the toprope setup as I climb up to the anchor before deciding whether or not to soil my drawers. Sometimes in the interest of redundancy I just soil them beforehand, regardless of the anchor setup. I find that checking out the anchor before climbing on it doesn't instill the necessary sense of drawer shitting outrage that I generally aim for. Needless to say, I am not invited to many parties. I was being sarcastic......
Oh, I feel so lame now because I was being completely serious about everything I posted.
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