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Bolter
Jul 16, 2009, 7:05 PM
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http://azdailysun.com/articles/2009/07/16/news/20090716_front_199996.txt
Pair sentenced for jump at Grand Canyon
Thursday, July 16, 2009
Two California men were federally sentenced to pay fines and satisfy other requirements in connection with a parachute jumping incident at Grand Canyon National Park.
According to information from the U.S. Attorney's Office in Phoenix, Christopher C. McNamara, 30, of Marin County, Calif., pleaded guilty to illegally jumping in the Canyon while on a November 2007 river trip. The practice is known as BASE jumping, which stands for jumping from fixed objects such as buildings, antennas, spans or earth with a parachute.
U.S. Magistrate Judge Mark E. Aspey ordered McNamara to pay a $5,000 fine to be dedicated to protection resource monitoring in the Canyon. McNamara must also serve one year of probation and may only enter Yosemite National Park because of the civic work he does there.
Jonathon Rich, 33, of South Lake Tahoe, Calif., pleaded guilty to violating the terms and conditions of his commercial filming river permit because he failed to report McNamara's BASE jump.
He must pay $1,000 in fines to be used for the Canyon's resource protection program. If he uses his work to promote Leave No Trace education and denounce illegal BASE jumping, the charge against him will be dropped.
Rich and McNamara had been on a river rafting trip to film a documentary about river rafting and rock climbing. Rich did not film the BASE jump.
In a prepared statement, Park Superintendent Steve Martin said, "BASE jumping is inherently dangerous; but that's only part of why it's prohibited in the park. BASE jumping here, where the terrain is so intensely rugged and the nearest help can be hours away, increases the inherent risks exponentially, and it puts park rescue personnel resources at risk."
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clc
Jul 16, 2009, 8:19 PM
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I wonder why we (Canada and USA) are so against BASE jumping when Europe and probably most of the world don't care. I think we are retarded in many of these issues. How are the laws so different in Europe. If Chris bounces off a rock half way down, that's his own fault and he knows it.
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leapinlizard
Jul 16, 2009, 8:25 PM
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Yeah I remember watching that jump in the video, I had wondered if they had gotten the permit for it.
Laws prohibiting base jumping are lame. Same as seat belt laws. If I want to drive without a seat belt that should be my business and mine alone, same goes for base jumping. Until these things start effecting other bystanders there should be no reason to outlaw.
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bandycoot
Jul 16, 2009, 8:26 PM
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I completely agree. I wish that our nation (especially my state) would embrace personal responsibility. I guess the argument that resuce staff could be put at risk is a valid one, but I'm not convinced that it out weights limiting our personal freedoms. I'd love to BASE jump someday, and find it ridiculous that it's illegal in so many places in the US.
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NJSlacker
Jul 16, 2009, 9:26 PM
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Bolter wrote: Jonathon Rich, 33, of South Lake Tahoe, Calif., pleaded guilty to violating the terms and conditions of his commercial filming river permit because he failed to report McNamara's BASE jump. He must pay $1,000 in fines to be used for the Canyon's resource protection program. If he uses his work to promote Leave No Trace education and denounce illegal BASE jumping, the charge against him will be dropped.
so, wait. This guy just happened to be there, had nothing to do with the BASE jump, didn't even film it, and is getting fined? What's wrong with the US?
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jt512
Jul 16, 2009, 9:30 PM
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NJSlacker wrote: Bolter wrote: Jonathon Rich, 33, of South Lake Tahoe, Calif., pleaded guilty to violating the terms and conditions of his commercial filming river permit because he failed to report McNamara's BASE jump. He must pay $1,000 in fines to be used for the Canyon's resource protection program. If he uses his work to promote Leave No Trace education and denounce illegal BASE jumping, the charge against him will be dropped. so, wait. This guy just happened to be there, had nothing to do with the BASE jump, didn't even film it, and is getting fined? What's wrong with the US?
Reading comprehension, apparently.
Jay
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dingus
Jul 16, 2009, 9:49 PM
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clc wrote: I wonder why we (Canada and USA) are so against BASE jumping when Europe and probably most of the world don't care. I think we are retarded in many of these issues. How are the laws so different in Europe. If Chris bounces off a rock half way down, that's his own fault and he knows it.
For the same reason rc.com is obsessed with safety.
DMT
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shimanilami
Jul 16, 2009, 9:57 PM
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FYI - seat belt laws, helmet laws, and others like it exist because of insurance companies and public welfare. They (and I, frankly) don't want to be paying medical bills for injuries that could be prevented by such safety measures.
If we could work out a system where our "contracts" state, "If I get hurt riding a motorcycle without a helmet, not wearing a seatbelt, or basejumping, etc, the you don't have to pay", then we probably wouldn't need such laws.
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dingus
Jul 16, 2009, 10:10 PM
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Funny... nobody on the Taco gives a flying fuck. Imagine that.
DMT
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shimanilami
Jul 16, 2009, 10:21 PM
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dingus wrote: Funny... nobody on the Taco gives a flying fuck. Imagine that. DMT
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petsfed
Jul 16, 2009, 10:58 PM
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leapinlizard wrote: Yeah I remember watching that jump in the video, I had wondered if they had gotten the permit for it. Laws prohibiting base jumping are lame. Same as seat belt laws. If I want to drive without a seat belt that should be my business and mine alone, same goes for base jumping. Until these things start effecting other bystanders there should be no reason to outlaw.
Until we have a) mandatory health insurance, b) allow hospitals the option to turn away people who can't pay, or c) disallow litigation by the families of those killed by dangerous activities that they knowingly participated in, we'll continue to make certain dangerous practices illegal.
Unless you're stoked on paying the medical bills of every dumbshit who is deterred by the law (but not the risk) and can't afford health insurance.
Besides, BASE jumping isn't illegal everywhere, just in National Parks.
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dingus
Jul 16, 2009, 11:05 PM
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shimanilami wrote: dingus wrote: Funny... nobody on the Taco gives a flying fuck. Imagine that. DMT We take ourselves a lot more seriously on this site, Dingus.
That's true we do hehe.
DMT
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dingus
Jul 16, 2009, 11:05 PM
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Goddamnit!
DMT
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Bolter
Jul 17, 2009, 12:27 AM
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Yep, these guys were stupid enough to film it and then put it on the REAL ROCK TOUR in some film.
Wasn't Chris McNamara on the board of Access Fund and American Alpine Club.
Guess he doesn't belief in that anymore.
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Geddmann
Jul 17, 2009, 1:37 AM
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shimanilami wrote: FYI - seat belt laws, helmet laws, and others like it exist because of insurance companies and public welfare. They (and I, frankly) don't want to be paying medical bills for injuries that could be prevented by such safety measures. ...
In PA, they revoked the helmet law a few years ago. My brother noticed that his insurance premiums went down. Why? The less people that wear helmets, the less people that have to pay hospital bills. Made him and the insurance company happy... Oh, and the people waiting for organ donations were also happy.
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DexterRutecki
Jul 17, 2009, 1:41 AM
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Bolter wrote: Wasn't Chris McNamara on the board of Access Fund and American Alpine Club. Guess he doesn't belief in that anymore.
Ehh, you only live once. Not taking a position, and I'm not a BASE jumper, but if jumping off the edge of the grand canyon, or El Capitan was to me the grand experience it probably is for a seasoned base jumper, I'd probably consider compromising some of my other positions for it.
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DexterRutecki
Jul 17, 2009, 1:43 AM
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shimanilami wrote: FYI - seat belt laws, helmet laws, and others like it exist because of insurance companies and public welfare. They (and I, frankly) don't want to be paying medical bills for injuries that could be prevented by such safety measures.
There's actually an even better argument for seatbelts. At highway speeds, all bets are off. But for collisions in the 20-40 mph range (which is a good percentage of them), drivers are provably able to keep better control of their vehicle (and thus, not run into/injure other drivers and pedestrians) if they are wearing their seatbelt.
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CrazyPetie
Jul 17, 2009, 2:20 AM
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Waaat i cant beleive that our government actually pursues something like this. Its just another pathetic attempt to make people pay taxes in the form of fines. base jumping is dangerous, base jumpers accept it, they dont need your help uncle sam. Chris Mac isn't allowed to goto Yosemite except for his job?? I would tell them to fuck off. Can you even imagine the conversation between his and his PO? its just such a sick joke.
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erick
Jul 17, 2009, 2:31 AM
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wtf BASE jumping illegal? meanwhile....smearing white chalk stains all over our cliffs is chill? meanwhile promoting "Leave no trace?"
Hypocrites. Big Brother extravaganza. lame fest. People should have the freedom to enjoy the landscape however they see fit, providing it does not degrade the parks.
vomit everywhere.
Edit: i understand how the remoteness factor can increase risk for rescue personnel. But the risk of a failed jump is not increased. a jumper should know and understand the risks, just like a climber should know and understand the risks of climbing in super remote locations. why the hell is climbing legal in patagonia, or on Baffin Island in northern Canada? Increased risk does not mean we should make it illegal. It means we should respect it and wait until our skills and experience and nerve can master it.
(This post was edited by erick on Jul 17, 2009, 2:37 AM)
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tarsier
Jul 17, 2009, 3:00 AM
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petsfed wrote: Until we have a) mandatory health insurance, b) allow hospitals the option to turn away people who can't pay, or c) disallow litigation by the families of those killed by dangerous activities that they knowingly participated in, we'll continue to make certain dangerous practices illegal.
True... which raises the point that it's hard to have freedom without capitalism. Charge for rescues. Let people take their own chances and Darwinian principles of evolution and the free market will sort things out. Not to deny externalities & shit, but this really is an example of the "nanny state."
(The mandatory health insurance won't really help though.)
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celticelement
Jul 17, 2009, 4:07 AM
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I understand the national park's position if they are responsible for the safety of the people who are there in the park.
If however, people are allowed to take full responsibility for acting in dangerous ways, then I don't think the national park would have a problem with these guys.
If the guys injured themselves while base jumping then a great many people here (in the US) would demand that it is the responsibility of someone to go rescue the base jumpers. The rescue effort could put the life of SAR personnel, and park rangers at risk. So the park is choosing to say that the base jumpers can't do an activity that could potentially put other people at risk.
Can you imagine the indignation from the masses if some guys base jumped and got themselves hurt and the park service just left them? But until you are willing to accept that they are not required to save us, then we should accept that they will want to make some rules regarding what we do.
Personally I would like those rules of "don't jump" changed to "if you do jump and hurt yourself we are not under any circumstances coming to get you." We certainly shouldn't hinder anyone who would want to try to help the accident voluntarily, but the park service shouldn't have to put it's employees at undue risk to go save anyone who jumps off a cliff.
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climbsomething
Jul 17, 2009, 4:40 AM
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celticelement wrote: If however, people are allowed to take full responsibility for acting in dangerous ways, then I don't think the national park would have a problem with these guys.
Maybe you meant required?
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pfwein
Jul 17, 2009, 4:52 AM
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dingus wrote: clc wrote: I wonder why we (Canada and USA) are so against BASE jumping when Europe and probably most of the world don't care. I think we are retarded in many of these issues. How are the laws so different in Europe. If Chris bounces off a rock half way down, that's his own fault and he knows it. For the same reason rc.com is obsessed with safety. DMT
Climbers, base jumpers, and other "extreme" sports challenge governmental control and get extra scrutiny.
But you are sort of right about safety obsession at least as it relates to me--I fully support base jumpers' rights in some instances, but I'm concerned about people who may be unwittingly below a landing area and who could get crunched if the jump goes haywire.
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celticelement
Jul 17, 2009, 4:59 AM
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Idk... maybe I did.
Maybe I still mean allowed though... because it seems like there is some measure of people who want to "protect" everyone... even those who don't want to be protected. So even if I say I am taking responsibility, and maybe I really do, if certain things happen then the social pressures on other people will make it so that they may feel compelled to react to a situation I created. So even though my intention is to take responsibility, others may be required to try to take over the responsibility, especially in a crisis situation of some kind.
I think many in our country would demand that the "man" (gov, park service, SAR, whatever) take over responsibility of a situation where life is in danger. It is a nice sentiment, and has a certain value...
Until we can allow people to bear the full consequences of their actions we really can't say that we can be fully responsible... though we should still try to be... and we should teach others to be. The more we are able to regulate ourselves, the more outside enforcement becomes unnecessary.
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