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rgold
Jul 21, 2009, 3:44 AM
Post #26 of 31
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joeforte wrote: I'm still having trouble seeing how you would tie a mule after doing a leg wrap? The brake strand would be tight between the device and your leg. How do you get the slack to pull the bight through?
You don't munter mule the belay line immediately to the anchor no matter which method you use, because if you did you'd trap the belay device on the weighted line. There are various ways to proceed, all of which, as far as I know, use a prussik above the belay device connected with a releasable knot (Munter Mule or Mariner's Hitch depending on the method) to the anchor or a line coming from the anchor. (*) Once that's on, you unwrap the rope from your leg, and ease the weight onto the prussik. then remove the unweighted belay device. Only then do you munter mule the leader's rope to the anchor, then use the releasable knot on the prussik to ease the load onto the (second) munter mule, and finally remove the prussik.
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(*) There is a way to skip the prussik if you were belaying with a munter hitch, essentially because a munter hitch on a free carabiner (unclipped from the harness) can be popped off a weighted line.
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NoSoup4U
Jul 21, 2009, 3:52 AM
Post #27 of 31
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Registered: Jul 20, 2009
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Well - this situation could occur in the case of a leader who takes a bad fall high on the pitch, where lowering her is impossible as you noted. It's not an entirely improbable scenario.
In reply to: If the second has reason to believe that the top anchor is good enough to take leader and second weight and the various small shocks that will necessarily be imposed
Hmm... maybe I don't understand this... But isn't this a serious gamble, trusting an anchor you can't see, and which has probably withstood some serious forces in during the leader's fall?
Totally agree with the screaming for help part - self-reliance can come on top of this though.
Going back to the slippery slip knot... Yeah - clipping the free loop of the mule+overhand to the anchor is a good idea as well. I guess some of the better options are mule+overhand clipped in anchor or mule+biner.
Thanks to all for the suggestions. I am still curious about the solution proposed where only one of the double ropes is used to tie off the belay device. I had never thought about that.
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joeforte
Jul 21, 2009, 11:07 AM
Post #28 of 31
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rgold wrote: joeforte wrote: I'm still having trouble seeing how you would tie a mule after doing a leg wrap? The brake strand would be tight between the device and your leg. How do you get the slack to pull the bight through? You don't munter mule the belay line immediately to the anchor no matter which method you use, because if you did you'd trap the belay device on the weighted line. There are various ways to proceed, all of which, as far as I know, use a prussik above the belay device connected with a releasable knot (Munter Mule or Mariner's Hitch depending on the method) to the anchor or a line coming from the anchor. (*) Once that's on, you unwrap the rope from your leg, and ease the weight onto the prussik. then remove the unweighted belay device. Only then do you munter mule the leader's rope to the anchor, then use the releasable knot on the prussik to ease the load onto the (second) munter mule, and finally remove the prussik. --------------------------- (*) There is a way to skip the prussik if you were belaying with a munter hitch, essentially because a munter hitch on a free carabiner (unclipped from the harness) can be popped off a weighted line.
Oh ok, I understand. Thanks for the clarification!
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rgold
Jul 21, 2009, 2:16 PM
Post #29 of 31
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NoSoup4u wrote: But isn't this a serious gamble, trusting an anchor you can't see, and which has probably withstood some serious forces in during the leader's fall?
Any rescue attempt that involves ascending to a hanging leader is a serious gamble. Don't forget that for a moment.
If during the ascent the top anchor pulls, both the leader and rescuer will fall onto the next piece. There are various scenarios depending on where that next piece is, and in some of them it may not matter all that much if the rope the rescuer is ascending is anchored or not. But if what transpires is that the leader and rescuer fall onto a piece that is below the rescuer, then without an anchored rope they are dead, whereas with an anchored rope they will be subjected to a static belay on that lower piece---good chance they'll be dead either way, the only issue being where the bodies end up.
Double-rope climber has a significant advantage here. They can prussik the leader's line without anchoring that line (and so have it immediately available for lowering) but can anchor the other line (with all avalable slack) and use standard rope-soloing techniques to protect themselves with the second line.
But I want to emphasize again that these hypothetical solutions, amusing as they may be to devise and practice in ideal controlled situations, are not all that likely to save the life of an unconscious leader and may get the second killed too.
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patto
Jul 21, 2009, 3:13 PM
Post #30 of 31
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rgold wrote: whereas with an anchored rope they will be subjected to a static belay on that lower piece---good chance they'll be dead either way, the only issue being where the bodies end up.
It would still likely be a fairly low factor fall. I'm not sure that the conclusing they'll be dead anyway is quite warranted.
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rgold
Jul 21, 2009, 3:25 PM
Post #31 of 31
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It'll only be a low fall factor if...its a low fall factor. The leader will be falling further than the rescuer and will be pulling the rescuer off with him if the next piece is below the rescuer. With a static belay, I wouldn't count on a positive outcome in that situation.
Because of this, the rescuer probably won't want to ascend all the way to the leader, but will want to stop with as many pieces between them and the leader as possible and lower from there. Again, this will be far less complex and time-consuming if the rescuer is ascending an unanchored rope.
By the way, if only a single rope is available, the rescuer may face some serious problems getting down themselves if they lower the leader from part way up. The question will be whether or not they can reach the rope running from the leader up to the highest piece. If this isn't going to be reachable from the rescuer's lowering stance (diagonal pitch), then there may be no alternative to ascending all the way to the top anchor.
There's obviously going to be a lot to think about before leaping into action, and of course the rescuer will be feeling a lot of pressure to do something fast. But failing to anticipate the reality of the situation will, at the very best, lead to big delays and of course could be much worse than that. So try to calm down and come up with a solid plan about what to do and how to deal with as many potential surprises as you can anticipate before you take any actions that will be hard to undo later.
I have a sinking feeling that many people are learning "belay escape" as if it was actually a solution to anything, where it is really just a potential first, and quite trivial, step in a very complex process with an enormous number of options, many of which are fraught with great danger. This is not an argument against learning escape techniques. Just be clear that in escaping the belay you've only taken a tiny step in a major journey.
By the way, I have never heard of anyone carrying out a self-rescue of the sort discussed here (hanging unconscious leader more than half-way up the pitch) in real life. I suspect the entire discussion is hypothetical.
(This post was edited by rgold on Jul 21, 2009, 3:51 PM)
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