|
binrat
Aug 7, 2009, 7:15 PM
Post #26 of 115
(3806 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2006
Posts: 1155
|
jt512 wrote: So, half the "climbers" responding have said you were right, and half said you were wrong. Have you learned anything? Jay
binrat
|
|
|
|
|
bill413
Aug 7, 2009, 7:33 PM
Post #27 of 115
(3802 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 19, 2004
Posts: 5674
|
binrat wrote: jt512 wrote: So, half the "climbers" responding have said you were right, and half said you were wrong. Have you learned anything? Jay half of us are going to die?? binrat
Or, since we are (presumptively) responding with our brains, were all half brain-dead?
|
|
|
|
|
jcosgrove
Aug 7, 2009, 8:15 PM
Post #28 of 115
(3789 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 12, 2007
Posts: 12
|
binrat wrote: half of us are going to die?? binrat
We're all going to die, question is: when?
|
|
|
|
|
shockabuku
Aug 7, 2009, 8:33 PM
Post #29 of 115
(3782 views)
Shortcut
Registered: May 20, 2006
Posts: 4868
|
That's how I lead belay with an ATC. I think it's a method that has mostly fallen out of vogue. I learned it from older school trad climbers. I like it because it's (almost) always locked off and I feel more comfortable in that position when I can't see my partner.
|
|
|
|
|
nolifeking
Aug 7, 2009, 10:50 PM
Post #30 of 115
(3766 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 18, 2009
Posts: 13
|
jt512 wrote: So, half the "climbers" responding have said you were right, and half said you were wrong. Have you learned anything? Jay
Maybe?
For reference, I do mostly use the "BUS" method, but I find the method I posted originally more useful when belaying someone who is climbing quickly, as it seems to have more efficient motion to me.
I think a few posters were confused:
I ALWAYS had at least 1 hand on the brake. It may have been my right hand, it may have been my left, but one was always there.
To the poster who was mentioning which method is better to teach lead belayers, which would that be, my method outlined in the OP, or the BUS method? I plan to start learning such things soon, and would rather practice what is more useful.
carnage wrote: here is the way you're belaying (which is incorrect, skip to 1:50) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-lBuKGdKhc
Comments have pretty much come down to 'yeah, it's alright I guess, and I may or may not use that method' or 'brake hand off rope is a no-no'
I get that it's their gym and I get to follow their rules. If that's how they want it fine, but I won't always be at that gym.
I mean, if the consensus is that the OP method is less safe, then I don't have a problem with the BUS, but I really am just asking for information, and I appreciate all the genuine responses.
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Aug 7, 2009, 11:18 PM
Post #31 of 115
(3763 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
the only hard and fast rule when belaying is that you need to maintain control of the rope with A hand at all times. everything else is subject to circumstances, region, skill level, etc, etc.
that said, the BUS method is becoming the most popular technique taught at gyms- so, if you're going to spend a fair bit of time in climbing gyms, knowing it will help get you through belay tests and generally avoid being hassled by the employee who doesnt understand there are other ways to control the rope.
i should mention, though, that its one thing for your employees who dont have any experience and have a limited time at the facility to be rabid about enforcing the BUS method, its another for someone who has been there for years and who should know better to do the same thing. an employer would do well to teach its employees a wide variety of skill sets so that they can better spot and understand unsafe behavior in the gym rather than just blindly enforcing a mostly arbitrary rule set by the owner. this not only makes them better employees, but also better climbers and better able to teach and explain to others when they see something different.
|
|
|
|
|
nolifeking
Aug 8, 2009, 12:07 AM
Post #32 of 115
(3755 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 18, 2009
Posts: 13
|
vegastradguy wrote: that said, the BUS method is becoming the most popular technique taught at gyms- so, if you're going to spend a fair bit of time in climbing gyms, knowing it will help get you through belay tests and generally avoid being hassled by the employee who doesnt understand there are other ways to control the rope. i should mention, though, that its one thing for your employees who dont have any experience and have a limited time at the facility to be rabid about enforcing the BUS method, its another for someone who has been there for years and who should know better to do the same thing. an employer would do well to teach its employees a wide variety of skill sets so that they can better spot and understand unsafe behavior in the gym rather than just blindly enforcing a mostly arbitrary rule set by the owner. this not only makes them better employees, but also better climbers and better able to teach and explain to others when they see something different.
That is one reason I was so surpirised - every other employee I have talked to there was very helpful and informative. This one made it sound like I was going to let me climber fall to her death because I used the outlined method occasionally.
|
|
|
|
|
robdotcalm
Aug 8, 2009, 12:22 AM
Post #33 of 115
(3753 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 31, 2002
Posts: 1027
|
In climbing multi-pitch trad, it's helpful to feel comfortable using either the dominant or contra-dominant hand as the principle brake hand. My advice to beginners is to learn by first using the contra-dominant hand for braking.
r.c
|
|
|
|
|
binrat
Aug 8, 2009, 1:26 AM
Post #34 of 115
(3746 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Jul 27, 2006
Posts: 1155
|
bill413 wrote: binrat wrote: jt512 wrote: So, half the "climbers" responding have said you were right, and half said you were wrong. Have you learned anything? Jay half of us are going to die?? binrat Or, since we are (presumptively) responding with our brains, were all half brain-dead?
you can say that again.
binrat
|
|
|
|
|
time2clmb
Aug 8, 2009, 1:56 AM
Post #35 of 115
(3736 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 26, 2007
Posts: 473
|
USnavy wrote: nolifeking wrote: Is there something inherently unsafe in that method? Absolutely. You NEVER take your hand off the brake side of the rope. At all times you must have a hand on the brake side of the rope. Taking your hand off the brake side is an instant failure during a belay test in any reputable gym across the world. If your right hand doesn’t actually ever leave the rope then your method is fine.
Go back and read again. At what point does a hand leave the brake strand????
_____________________________________________
It's always easy to tell who the inexperienced noob know it alls are. They are the ones that will rant on about how there is only one right way of doing things and stick to absolute "always" rules. There are alot of different ways of doing things safely and belaying is no exception to this. As long as you leave one hand on the brake strand and maintain constant control then it's all good.
Keep learning new ways of doing things and adopt what works best for the situation.
|
|
|
|
|
USnavy
Aug 8, 2009, 11:45 AM
Post #36 of 115
(3717 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 6, 2007
Posts: 2667
|
jt512 wrote: USnavy wrote: nolifeking wrote: Is there something inherently unsafe in that method? Absolutely. You NEVER take your hand off the brake side of the rope. At all times you must have a hand on the brake side of the rope. Taking your hand off the brake side is an instant failure during a belay test in any reputable gym across the world. Pretty confident pronouncement from a guy who lives on an isolated island in the Pacific Ocean. What's this, then, a disreputable gym? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-lBuKGdKhc Jay
I thought you would be the last person to reference a gym instructor as an appropriate de facto standard for climbing. I was actually starting to think you might know a thing or two about climbing. Apparently I was wrong. I can’t tell you how many “5.12 gym leaders" I have climbed with that couldn’t even onsight 5.10- outside. The quality of gym instruction is, in most cases, but a sub-level above no instruction.
No I would not consider that belay method reputable. Granted I have certainty seen worse but I wouldn’t not allow him to belay me on lead on anything hard. If the climber fell during that transition period where his hand was of the brake side the climber would be, for a lack of better words, completely fucked... There is no way in hell that guy is catching any reasonable lead fall during that transitioning period holding on with three fingers from the opposite hand.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Aug 8, 2009, 11:45 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
USnavy
Aug 8, 2009, 11:52 AM
Post #37 of 115
(3713 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Nov 6, 2007
Posts: 2667
|
time2clmb wrote: USnavy wrote: nolifeking wrote: Is there something inherently unsafe in that method? Absolutely. You NEVER take your hand off the brake side of the rope. At all times you must have a hand on the brake side of the rope. Taking your hand off the brake side is an instant failure during a belay test in any reputable gym across the world. If your right hand doesn’t actually ever leave the rope then your method is fine. Go back and read again. At what point does a hand leave the brake strand???? _____________________________________________ It's always easy to tell who the inexperienced noob know it alls are. They are the ones that will rant on about how there is only one right way of doing things and stick to absolute "always" rules. There are alot of different ways of doing things safely and belaying is no exception to this. As long as you leave one hand on the brake strand and maintain constant control then it's all good. Keep learning new ways of doing things and adopt what works best for the situation.
It’s not "a" hand. It’s "the" hand. Where is "the" is your right hand (if belaying right handed). It’s ok to use the secondary hand to hold onto the rope well you advance your brake hand but at no point should the brake hand ever leave the rope. It’s a hell of a lot harder catching a lead fall when you’re holding on the rope with the hand you never catch falls with. Now as one advances and they have 300 lead fall catches under their belt, some things can change.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Aug 8, 2009, 11:56 AM)
|
|
|
|
|
nolifeking
Aug 8, 2009, 1:02 PM
Post #38 of 115
(3702 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 18, 2009
Posts: 13
|
For one, I didn't grip it with just 3 fingers of the left hand, it was a full grip, just as with the right hand. During the "transition" there is one hand with a full grip on the rope. It was top rope. I have caught falls before with my left hand, seemed to work out just fine. It didn't feel any more or less stable than with my right hand alone, when that happens (though I do generally try to bring both hands down if I can anticipate a larger fall).
I can understand why people think that the letting go with one hand could produce complacency, and you might end up releasing your brake before the other hand has a full grip, but that is just an error. I always made sure I was pulling down fully on the device before with the "non-brake hand" before I released the "brake" hand.
But where does this idea that the left hand cannot hold a fall come from? I'm not talking about crazy factor 1-2 falls 3 pitches up, I mean in the gym, on TR. I plan to get a Cinch for lead belay anyway 
|
|
|
|
|
time2clmb
Aug 8, 2009, 2:41 PM
Post #39 of 115
(3693 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 26, 2007
Posts: 473
|
USnavy wrote: time2clmb wrote: USnavy wrote: nolifeking wrote: Is there something inherently unsafe in that method? Absolutely. You NEVER take your hand off the brake side of the rope. At all times you must have a hand on the brake side of the rope. Taking your hand off the brake side is an instant failure during a belay test in any reputable gym across the world. If your right hand doesn’t actually ever leave the rope then your method is fine. Go back and read again. At what point does a hand leave the brake strand???? _____________________________________________ It's always easy to tell who the inexperienced noob know it alls are. They are the ones that will rant on about how there is only one right way of doing things and stick to absolute "always" rules. There are alot of different ways of doing things safely and belaying is no exception to this. As long as you leave one hand on the brake strand and maintain constant control then it's all good. Keep learning new ways of doing things and adopt what works best for the situation. It’s not "a" hand. It’s "the" hand. Where is "the" is your right hand (if belaying right handed). It’s ok to use the secondary hand to hold onto the rope well you advance your brake hand but at no point should the brake hand ever leave the rope. It’s a hell of a lot harder catching a lead fall when you’re holding on the rope with the hand you never catch falls with. Now as one advances and they have 300 lead fall catches under their belt, some things can change.
There are ALOT of people out there that are more than capable of catching a fall with either hand. It doesn't HAVE to be JUST your right hand or JUST your left hand. I have no problem saying this as it's NOT in the beginner forum.
Sure, a noob should stick to one method until they have it dialed, but once they are proficient and have a good solid understanding of how things work, there is nothing wrong with switching up techniques so long as full control is maintained on the rope and there is one hand on the brake strand at all times.
Go ahead and defend your position...it's just going to make you look stupid. Don't be one of those people 
|
|
|
|
|
theguy
Aug 8, 2009, 3:06 PM
Post #40 of 115
(3684 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 14, 2004
Posts: 469
|
jdefazio wrote: csproul wrote: jt512 wrote: csproul wrote: Curious Jay, would you let the person in that video belay you like that? Sure. Why not? In reply to: PS- judging by his accent, maybe he is from an isolated island in Pacific Ocean too? Um, which ocean? Jay No reason, I was just curious. Is not Australia at least partly in the Pacific ocean (as well as the Indian ocean)? Wait, which part of the UK is in the Pacific? 
The part that doesn't rain? ;)
CSPROUL, I give you the joys of Google: Luctonions Sports Club.
|
|
|
|
|
theguy
Aug 8, 2009, 3:32 PM
Post #41 of 115
(3679 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 14, 2004
Posts: 469
|
nolifeking wrote: I can understand why people think that the letting go with one hand could produce complacency, and you might end up releasing your brake before the other hand has a full grip, but that is just an error
Exactly! I was originally taught the OP's method and switched on later advice and observation: when I paid close attention to my technique with a rapid climber, I noticed that sometimes there was a brief moment when neither hand was fully on the rope.
Yes, this is an error. However, much of rockclimbing is based on reducing the potential for, and impact of, errors.
A hip belay is perfectly safe if there are no errors; in fact, other than the occasional loose rock, you wouldn't need a rope at all if it weren't for errors (excepting of course routes which require a rappel, and those rock climbers who in a notable reversal of mountaineering trends are applying siege-style techniques to their sport projects).
And yet few modern climbers (other than boulderers) completely eschew belay devices (and/or munter hitches) and ropes.
|
|
|
|
|
vegastradguy
Aug 8, 2009, 5:40 PM
Post #42 of 115
(3663 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 28, 2002
Posts: 5919
|
USnavy wrote: No I would not consider that belay method reputable. Granted I have certainty seen worse but I wouldn’t not allow him to belay me on lead on anything hard. If the climber fell during that transition period where his hand was of the brake side the climber would be, for a lack of better words, completely fucked... There is no way in hell that guy is catching any reasonable lead fall during that transitioning period holding on with three fingers from the opposite hand.
dude, that's a TR belay method (and an okay one at that)- i would like to see his left hand a little lower on the rope, but whatever.
btw- how many people do you know who can feed out slack by changing hands on the brake side of the rope?
|
|
|
|
|
curt
Aug 8, 2009, 5:53 PM
Post #43 of 115
(3660 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 18275
|
jt512 wrote: nolifeking wrote: Hi, So yesterday I was belaying at the gym and one of the employees came over and said I was belaying incorrectly (TR). The method I was using was: 1) Left hand climber side, Right on brake. 2) Pull slack through 3) Grab rope nearish to top of ATC (brake side) with Left hand, and hold. 4) Release Right hand, bring above left and hold 5) Repeat. She told me my "brake hand was leaving the rope". I was concentrating on belaying and didn't want to start an argument with her there, so I have to ask, is there a problem with the way I was belaying? Is there something inherently unsafe in that method? It seems safe to me, since I am always holding the ATC locked off when not pulling slack through, though the hand holding the brake strand may change. Thanks! So, half the "climbers" responding have said you were right, and half said you were wrong. Have you learned anything? Jay
Hopefully,
1) Get out of the fucking gym.
2) Get away from the fucking n00bs.
Curt
|
|
|
|
|
jt512
Aug 8, 2009, 6:00 PM
Post #44 of 115
(3659 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Apr 12, 2001
Posts: 21904
|
USnavy wrote: jt512 wrote: USnavy wrote: nolifeking wrote: Is there something inherently unsafe in that method? Absolutely. You NEVER take your hand off the brake side of the rope. At all times you must have a hand on the brake side of the rope. Taking your hand off the brake side is an instant failure during a belay test in any reputable gym across the world. Pretty confident pronouncement from a guy who lives on an isolated island in the Pacific Ocean. What's this, then, a disreputable gym? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-lBuKGdKhc Jay Yet it was you that went so far to make sure it was known they you have never in your entire life taken your hand off the brake side of the rope. Don’t you remember the large argument? You desperately tried to make it clear that you have never let go of the brake side of the rope. So where you lying or did you suddenly have a change of heart in acceptable belay methods...?
Neither. I doubt I made the statement you claim. Would you care to prove it? If I did ever say that, then it was probably a poor choice of words. More likely, though, what I said was that I have never let go with my brake hand. See the difference? If not, ask yourself which hand is the brake hand in the OP's hand-over-hand method.
In reply to: I thought you would be the last person to reference a gym instructor as an appropriate de facto standard for climbing.
I was not doing so. I was disproving, by counterexample, your naive assertion that no reputable gym in the world permit hand-over-hand toprope belaying.
In reply to: The quality of gym instruction is, in most cases, but a sub-level above no instruction.
I completely agree; however, this makes me wonder why you made the point that no reputable gym would condone hand-over-hand belaying. Which of us was using gym instruction "as an appropriate de facto standard for climbing"?
In reply to: No I would not consider that belay method reputable.
That method is indeed reputable; it is used by countless competent belayers. But reputation isn't the issue here, safety is; so please provide one reason why this method is unsafe—that is, once you have actually understood the method, since below you incorrectly imply that it entails a "transition" during which the belayer has no brake hand on the rope.
In reply to: Granted I have certainty seen worse but I wouldn’t not allow him to belay me on lead on anything hard.
Irrelevant. No one is talking about lead belaying. This is a toprope belay technique; a way to take in rope. It is not applicable to letting rope out. And if you think it's so terrible to use a hand-over-hand technique on the brake side of the rope to take in rope, then what exactly do you do to take in slack as quickly as possible if your partner drops the rope at the apex of an attempt to make an overhead clip. If you do anything other than pull in rope hand over hand on the brake side, then you are an incompetent belayer, as far as I'm concerned.
In reply to: If the climber fell during that transition period where his hand was of[f] the brake side the climber would be, for a lack of better words, completely fucked... There is no way in hell that guy is catching any reasonable lead fall during that transitioning period holding on with three fingers from the opposite hand.
There is no such transition period. Perhaps that is where your thinking has gone astray.
Jay
|
|
|
|
|
Diablotin
Aug 8, 2009, 11:32 PM
Post #45 of 115
(3635 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 9, 2009
Posts: 7
|
+1
Thank you for saying what I wanted to reply with a better english that I would have been able to write! 
|
|
|
|
|
jamatt
Aug 9, 2009, 12:46 AM
Post #46 of 115
(3628 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Oct 4, 2005
Posts: 160
|
if i understand correctly, you're holding the rope with both incoming and outgoing strands parallel to each other, rather than taking the brake side to your hip before sliding the brake hand?
(maybe the videos show this but it's blocked here)
the parallel method using an atc is a holdover from the belay technique using a munter hitch, where holding the climber side and the brake side parallel gives the belayer the most friction.
|
|
|
|
|
Diablotin
Aug 9, 2009, 12:58 AM
Post #47 of 115
(3627 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Mar 9, 2009
Posts: 7
|
The only time I dont brake is when I swallow the slack. Otherwise my brake is always on when on TR. And on lead my brake is always ready, except if I get in some slack (which take an instant).
|
|
|
|
|
nolifeking
Aug 9, 2009, 2:00 AM
Post #48 of 115
(3619 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 18, 2009
Posts: 13
|
jamatt wrote: if i understand correctly, you're holding the rope with both incoming and outgoing strands parallel to each other, rather than taking the brake side to your hip before sliding the brake hand?
No, when I move my hands up/switch them, the rope is locked off, with at least one hand on the rope.
|
|
|
|
|
raingod
Aug 9, 2009, 3:44 AM
Post #49 of 115
(3596 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Feb 2, 2003
Posts: 118
|
I'll chime in on the nothing wrong with the described method side. As long as you are always in control of the rope I don't care what belay method you use.
|
|
|
|
|
drector
Aug 9, 2009, 6:33 AM
Post #50 of 115
(3585 views)
Shortcut
Registered: Aug 27, 2002
Posts: 1037
|
I use it all the time when I am tired of yarding in rope using the more common pinch-slide method.
If you let go of the brake end of the rope so that NO hand is on the brake side of the rope, you are a fool and should be shot, or at least stopped from belaying On the other hand, if you belay in a way where one hand is ALWAYS on the brake side of the rope, changing hands is no big deal.
You guys here are arguing about a belay technique that is inherently safe. Maybe it would be better to consider how many dumbasses out there let go of the rope using any method.
I walked up to a guy a the gym who was using the pinch-and-slide method and pointed out that each time he pinched, he was pinching below his brake and and had to move that brake hand over his other hand to slide the brake hand down the brake side of the rope. Sure, he tried to make it look like his brake hand was 'close' to the brake side of the rope but close doesn't take care of business. He eventually understood the proble, since he was a smart person.
The overhand hand switch method is not uncommon and is certainly safe since a hand is always on the brake side of the rope and ready to catch a fall IF YOU ARE NOT AN IDIOT WHO CANNOT BELAY PROPERLY.
Dave
P.S. Just because don't use a specific technique and just because you see it and don't understand it doesn't mean it is unsafe or wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
