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vegastradguy
Aug 31, 2009, 6:31 PM
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mikec58 wrote: vegastradguy wrote: since it hasnt been mentioned, i'll mention it. the rope you're using is too thick for a grigri- its only rated to 11mm line, and you're using 7/16" static (from what i understand)- that thick of a line will not like the grigri until the grigri has essentially been bored out a bit from lots of use. 7/16 inch corresponds to 11.1 mm, and the rope appears to be a little less than 7/16 inch when I put the calipers on it. I was trained by the biggest names in tree climbing. They use the same rope with a Gri-Gri all the time. In fact, they donated the equipment to me. Since these guys are a lot lighter than me, they never have problems with the Gri-Gri and this kind of rope.
perhaps- or perhaps they forgot about the grigri needing a break-in period. i have friends who use this setup for cell phone rigging, and there is definitely a break-in period.
i'm also guessing that your weight is contributing- the grigri works on a spring loaded cam- your weight will make it harder to release the cam smoothly, and given the ropes very wide diameter, the amount of 'play' where control is good on the grigri is much smaller than it would be if you were using a thinner line. add these together, and i'm betting that when you try to release the grigri, it goes from 0-60 almost instantly, making for very scary ride.
anyway, like i said- i'm sure if you continue to use the grigri (assuming its new), the rope slot will bore out somewhat, allowing for a little more play, and therefore more control.
or, you could just use a device that is meant to be used with the diameter of rope you're using. Petzl makes the I'D for a reason- commercial line work on thicker ropes, since most commercial operations wont let you use a sub-11mm line.
i'm not saying the grigri doesnt work, what i'm saying is, its out of spec for the application you're using. this just means that it might work just fine, but dont be surprised if it doesnt- petzl didnt intend for the grigri to be used with super-fat ropes, and it was probably for a reason. in the end, your experience is likely the exact reason that 11mm is the max for a grigri.
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Urban_Cowboy
Aug 31, 2009, 10:38 PM
Post #52 of 82
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Munter hitch has a time and a place...as in last resort, no other device available. Using a Munter will kink the shat out of your rope. For the record, I always hear how Gri Gris and I'D style devices will kink the rope, but never seen it happen in years of use. Unlike witnessing what looks like a hanging coiled snake after using a Munter a couple times on a previously straight rope.
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moose_droppings
Aug 31, 2009, 11:10 PM
Post #53 of 82
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Urban_Cowboy wrote: Munter hitch has a time and a place...as in last resort, no other device available. Using a Munter will kink the shat out of your rope. For the record, I always hear how Gri Gris and I'D style devices will kink the rope, but never seen it happen in years of use. Unlike witnessing what looks like a hanging coiled snake after using a Munter a couple times on a previously straight rope.
I agree about the munter, but that's not what we were talking about.
The MM in my post was referring to the Monster Munter that the OP was referring to in his post before mine.
Go back and check it out if your not familiar with it and its uses.
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Urban_Cowboy
Aug 31, 2009, 11:20 PM
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I'm quite familiar with that version of the Munter, it has a time and place also...when extra friction is needed and as a last resort, because the proper device is not available.
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moose_droppings
Sep 1, 2009, 12:16 AM
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That's fine. I'll let the OP decide what is going to work for him, I just pointed out that his concern was incorrect about the flipping while descending. Your first response to me was about a Munter, I just wanted to make it clear to all we were talking about a Monster Munter.
The dude sounds like he'll know what he likes when he finds it.
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Costa
Sep 1, 2009, 3:35 PM
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the petzl descender has adjustable speed via pressure. shouldnt this suffice with a shunt if your not comfortable with a prussik as a safety?
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j_ung
Sep 1, 2009, 3:54 PM
Post #57 of 82
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Mikec58, this is not a new problem. People have dealt with this over and over again with a lot of success. Get a regular rappel device (your Reverso 3 will work just fine). Use two biners on your harness belay loop instead of just one and use an autoblock back up. There will be plenty of friction and the autoblock makes it "self locking."
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patto
Sep 1, 2009, 4:29 PM
Post #58 of 82
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I don't know why so many people continue to rant on about the gri-gri. IT IS NOT A DEVICE DESIGNED FOR RAPPELLING.
Sure you can rappel off a gri-gri but it is far from ideal.
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MS1
Sep 1, 2009, 4:36 PM
Post #59 of 82
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j_ung wrote: Mikec58, this is not a new problem. People have dealt with this over and over again with a lot of success. Get a regular rappel device (your Reverso 3 will work just fine). Use two biners on your harness belay loop instead of just one and use an autoblock back up. There will be plenty of friction and the autoblock makes it "self locking."
^^^
Best advice in the thread. You need to focus less on expensive toys, and more on learning basic skills that will keep you safe. The more complicated your safety system is, the easier it is to screw it up one day and die.
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unrest
Sep 1, 2009, 6:50 PM
Post #60 of 82
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A while back I had to do some lowering of some very heavy people with packs on and using a gri-gri. I did something simple.
Gear:
4 Lockers (Petzl William Screw-Lock)
2 Slings (24", 12")
I took a sling about 24" long put two lockers on each end and clipped those around my leg loops. I used another 12" sling that I clipped in the middle of the sling (over both sides) and up above the gri-gri ( think T ) again using 2 lockers. I ran the rope out of the gri-gri into the carabiner that bisected the 24" sling over to the right leg loop (I'm right handed on the brake) and out to my hand. I was then able to stand tall and increase friction on the rope (all with carabiners) or bring my knees closer to my chest to reduce friction. It worked great, the gri-gri could still lock up.
I was so intrigued by the idea and how comfortable it was that I actually made a sort of belay seat out of it and lowered myself from a 60' overhang this way. The setup takes a minute and it works surprisingly well. Tweak it to your liking. Your legs increase or decrease the friction.
It sounds like a total cluster but it's pretty simple. It's a variable friction that I could control and I liked that.
YMMV
I can post a picture if needed.
(This post was edited by unrest on Sep 1, 2009, 6:51 PM)
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MS1
Sep 1, 2009, 6:53 PM
Post #61 of 82
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That does, indeed, sound like a CF. What advantage does this have over just running the rope through one biner on your leg loop?
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unrest
Sep 1, 2009, 6:58 PM
Post #62 of 82
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MS1 wrote: That does, indeed, sound like a CF. What advantage does this have over just running the rope through one biner on your leg loop?
I'll post a picture. You have to see it to get it.
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mikec58
Sep 1, 2009, 7:44 PM
Post #63 of 82
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MS1 wrote: Best advice in the thread. You need to focus less on expensive toys, and more on learning basic skills that will keep you safe. The more complicated your safety system is, the easier it is to screw it up one day and die.
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bandycoot
Sep 1, 2009, 8:10 PM
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Bring a tagline. Haul/lower the pack instead of climb/rappel with it on your back.
Josh
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mikec58
Sep 2, 2009, 12:55 AM
Post #66 of 82
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I received the Reverso 3 and experimented with it by itself and with the Gri-Gri. This is a sweet device! I first tried the Reverso 3 on its own with the friction slots on the control side. I got the impression that this device is effective for a much wider range of loads than self locking devices such as the Gri-Gri and the STOP. It seems to provide plenty of friction with only one rope, but I only tried it for short descents without the backpack. I also tried it flipped around so the friction slots aren't engaged and used the Gri-Gri below. The strap to the Reverso 3 had a lot of tension and took plenty of weight off the Gri-Gri, but there remained enough weight so that the Gri-Gri locked when I released the handle. It worked well, but it seems that this setup would be smoother with an ATC that provides a little less friction.
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mikec58
Sep 3, 2009, 1:44 AM
Post #67 of 82
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I received the I'D and the six bar rack and tried them out. They both work great, but I absolutely love the rack! It seems like it should be plenty safe without using a Prussik. I still need to do further testing with a loaded backpack.
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Urban_Cowboy
Sep 3, 2009, 3:38 AM
Post #68 of 82
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Which 6-bar rack did you get? Just curious...
Racks are wonderful for lots of things, as long as it's only for lowering. Since you mentioned that you're using these devices for trees, I'd expect that you aren't starting at the top...which means you'll also need to ascend at some point, maybe even in the middle of a decent. For that the Gri Gri and I'D give a few more options.
Congrats on having so many pieces of hardware to choose from, not many are as fortunate as we are, I've got about $6K worth of gear myself, some stays at work, some stays at home, but it all gets used.
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mikec58
Sep 3, 2009, 3:19 PM
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I think it's made by BMS. A photo from yesterday's testing is attached. My trees are rigged at an average of about 80 feet. Only one is rigged above 90 feet. I climb using a single rope, two ascenders, and foot straps on the lower ascender. This is a standard approach among tree climbers. Going up has never given me any problems. I will probably use the rack and the I'D from now on, but I'm the most excited about the rack. For my work, the climb itself isn't the main issue. I enjoy climbing, but my primary motive is to get above the surrounding trees to watch for an endangered bird flying over the treetops. Since I'm doing this alone in a remote area and have limited climbing experience, I want to use safe and trouble-free methods that will support my body weight plus a load of cameras and other gear. It seems that I have now found what I want.
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Attachments:
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rack.jpg
(53.6 KB)
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Urban_Cowboy
Sep 4, 2009, 12:10 AM
Post #70 of 82
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Yep, BMS rescue rack.
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mikec58
Sep 11, 2009, 7:50 PM
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I tried the six-bar rack on a fairly tall tree that has lots of broken branches as obstacles. I was able to negotiate these with no problem, and the rack was incredibly smooth despite a heavy backpack full of gear. I am sold on it. Thanks for all of the suggestions.
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snoboy
Sep 14, 2009, 6:21 PM
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Mike:
If you want another thing to consider, look at the Scarab -
www.scarabrescue.com
Many Rope Rescue operators consider the 6 bar rack to be a standard, the 4 bar rescue rack from BMS to be better than that, and the Scarab to be better yet.
The advantages of the Scarab are that it is smaller, faster to rig, and easier to operate, including lock off, than the rack.
Like the rack though, it does not auto lock.
I am a big guy as well, and really like the control and versatility of the Scarab.
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altelis
Sep 14, 2009, 7:08 PM
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snoboy wrote: Mike: If you want another thing to consider, look at the Scarab - http://www.scarabrescue.com Many Rope Rescue operators consider the 6 bar rack to be a standard, the 4 bar rescue rack from BMS to be better than that, and the Scarab to be better yet. The advantages of the Scarab are that it is smaller, faster to rig, and easier to operate, including lock off, than the rack. Like the rack though, it does not auto lock. I am a big guy as well, and really like the control and versatility of the Scarab.
clicky
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mikec58
Sep 14, 2009, 7:10 PM
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Sno: The Scarab looks like an interesting device. Does the bar in the middle open up to receive the bight in the same way as on a rack? I can't tell from the photos.
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snoboy
Sep 14, 2009, 7:30 PM
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That is exactly how it works.
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