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cracklover
Dec 17, 2009, 5:06 PM
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Sorry about the cryptic reference to Amber's Fall. I'll try to give a brief synopsis:
A woman who used to post here regularly was a fairly new trad leader, and was interested in getting into big walls. She got dragged up a few walls by one partner, and then when he became unavailable, she found another. She misrepresented her skill level, they epiced, and she came a lucky hairs-width from falling to the bottom of the canyon at night in Zion.
GO
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kriso9tails
Dec 17, 2009, 6:44 PM
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cracklover wrote: How do you think it would affect your day (and your life) to have your partner die, or kill you (or almost one or the other)?
In what situation does someone's solid climbing grade make a critical difference between life and death?
"Well, you said you were a solid 12a climber. The next fifteen feet are solid 12a moves straight from the anchor and there's no pro, so it's a factor 2 if you fuck up. There is actually a pin you could clip, but it's manky and someone clipped a hungry lioness to it (*rawr*)."
It's possible I just have no balls, or that I have no faith in other people, but I don't push it like that with someone whose skills remain unseen and untested.
In reply to: Sometimes semantics are important. Sometimes extremely so. GO
Sure, but show me an objective case where this is true with 'solid 5.X climber'.
I mean, I might say that I'm a solid 5.11- climber because I never fall on climbs of that grade; however, I don't climb crack, so I don't take that into consideration in my self-assessment. Perhaps you don't consider that well-rounded enough for a solid 5.11- climber. Is it a safety issue if you take me to climb a sketch 5.11b crack? No, because I'll tell you I'm no good on crack well before it becomes an issue. Why? Because I'm not an asshole. Well, maybe I'm an asshole, but not an asshole in that way specifically.
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cracklover
Dec 17, 2009, 6:46 PM
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There's a second reason why I raised the specter of Amber's fall.
See, it relates directly back to the OP in this thread. It's easy to see the fluid grace exhibited by others while soloing, or to read trip reports by wall aficionados, and be enthralled. What you don't see in a Master's of Stone video or a trip report is the years upon years of dedication that went into creating the artist's final product. In short, they make it look much more easy and fun than the road to that product really is.
So you get people who think: I want to do that - I can do that! And why not?! I mean, we all get inspired by greatness that's far beyond our current abilities. Nothing whatsoever wrong with reaching far. But climbing videos and trip reports on the internet lack context. It's not the same as sitting around a campfire with someone - getting the vibe.
And then, when you overreach way too far, nature has a way of slapping you back down.
GO
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Arrogant_Bastard
Dec 17, 2009, 6:51 PM
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kriso9tails wrote: however, I don't climb crack..
But... you... B.C.
*sigh*
Yore dead to me.
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kriso9tails
Dec 17, 2009, 6:55 PM
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It was hypothetical, so it doesn't necessarily reflect reality.
In reality, however...
...I still don't climb crack (very often). I will spare you the life story and all the whining as to why though. Nobody likes it when the dead just won't STFU.
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cracklover
Dec 17, 2009, 7:00 PM
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kriso9tails wrote: cracklover wrote: How do you think it would affect your day (and your life) to have your partner die, or kill you (or almost one or the other)? In what situation does someone's solid climbing grade make a critical difference between life and death? "Well, you said you were a solid 12a climber. The next fifteen feet are solid 12a moves straight from the anchor and there's no pro, so it's a factor 2 if you fuck up. There is actually a pin you could clip, but it's manky and someone clipped a hungry lioness to it (*rawr*)." It's possible I just have no balls, or that I have no faith in other people, but I don't push it like that with someone whose skills remain unseen and untested.
Don't get me wrong - I'm with you on this one. I think choosing partners is a two-way street, and I'm sure I'd pick up on CraziePetie's vibe long before roping up with him. But while I'm typically quite conservative with my partner selection, I've been known to make exceptions. Lucky for me, in all those cases the climbers in question have been honest about their skill level.*
In reply to: I mean, I might say that I'm a solid 5.11- climber because I never fall on climbs of that grade; however, I don't climb crack, so I don't take that into consideration in my self-assessment. Perhaps you don't consider that well-rounded enough for a solid 5.11- climber. Is it a safety issue if you take me to climb a sketch 5.11b crack? No, because I'll tell you I'm no good on crack well before it becomes an issue. Why? Because I'm not an asshole. Well, maybe I'm an asshole, but not an asshole in that way specifically.
Okay, but what if we rope up, and there's a short stretch of 10+ crack in a long and committing climb? And you can't get up it to save your life? Okay, in this case, I should be able to get up it no problem. But only because I'm the stronger climber. If the tables were turned, we might be in real trouble.
GO
*Edited to add - or in the one or two exceptions, I've been strong enough to pick up the slack.
(This post was edited by cracklover on Dec 17, 2009, 7:03 PM)
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chadnsc
Dec 17, 2009, 7:22 PM
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I think this is an interesting discussion regarding accurately representing your climbing ability and what can happen if you don’t.
One thing that can be scary is when both people involved in a group inflate their climbing ability or climbing knowledge. Last year I was out with four acquaintances doing some simple top roping up on the North Shore of Minnesota. Doing so involves rigging a top rope, top belay system over Lake Superior. Two of the people in the group where new to climbing and had no experience rigging anchors. The other two acquaintances did know how to build anchors without any problems and insisted they knew how to rig a rescue pulley in case anyone became stuck on a route. I climbed with these folks for a few house and then went home.
To make a long story short one climber inflated her climbing ability to her boyfriend; the boyfriend inflated his understanding and experience in setting up a self rescue. The girlfriend gets on a climb way too hard for, the boyfriend tries to haul her up with a rescue pulley system but has no idea how to correctly and safely rig one. Now the girlfriend is suck on overhanging rock 80’ over Lake Superior and no one can bring her up. I got a call from one of the new climbers telling me what happened and asking me to come back and help.
The girlfriend spent 2 ½ hours hanging in space until I could get back to the crag and rig a rescue pulley to haul her up by headlamp.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Dec 17, 2009, 7:30 PM
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chadnsc wrote: Last year I was out with four acquaintances doing some simple top roping... The other two acquaintances did know how to build anchors without any problems and insisted they knew how to rig a rescue pulley in case anyone became stuck on a route.
Soooo.... you didn't instantly begin to question their knowledge and ability when they mentioned they could rig a rescue pulley in case someone got stuck on a TR?
(This post was edited by Arrogant_Bastard on Dec 17, 2009, 7:31 PM)
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k.l.k
Dec 17, 2009, 7:33 PM
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Arrogant_Bastard wrote: chadnsc wrote: Last year I was out with four acquaintances doing some simple top roping... The other two acquaintances did know how to build anchors without any problems and insisted they knew how to rig a rescue pulley in case anyone became stuck on a route. Soooo.... you didn't instantly begin to question their knowledge and ability when they mentioned they could rig a rescue pulley in case someone got stuck on a TR?
I thought the moral of the story was that they don't have jumars in Minnesota.
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chadnsc
Dec 17, 2009, 7:36 PM
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No because it's a top rope top belay with no real ground or escape from below. The climbs start out around 100' above Lake Superior, you rappel or lower down (depending on if you're leading or tope roping) and then climb back up to the anchor and your belayer (if you're top roping).
If you’re toproping and you can't do the climb then you'll need to be hauled up and out. This is really only an issue with overhung routes. It can also become an issue if you're leading a route and it's beyond your ability as you simply can't down climb or lower off your last piece, you have to climb out.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Dec 17, 2009, 7:38 PM
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chadnsc wrote: No because it's a top rope top belay with no real ground or escape from below. The climbs start out around 100' above Lake Superior, you rappel or lower down (depending on if you're leading or tope roping) and then climb back up to the anchor and your belayer (if you're top roping). If you’re toproping and you can't do the climb then you'll need to be hauled up and out. This is really only an issue with overhung routes. It can also become an issue if you're leading a route and it's beyond your ability as you simply can't down climb or lower off your last piece, you have to climb out.
Let me get this straight, you rap down off the anchors and can get to the start of the climb, but if you fall during the climb you can no longer lower off to the start?
Taking someone down into a climb-out scenario where they can't even dog the easiest route out is just plain fucking retarded. Everyone involved that day should take up golf.
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chadnsc
Dec 17, 2009, 7:39 PM
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k.l.k wrote: Arrogant_Bastard wrote: chadnsc wrote: Last year I was out with four acquaintances doing some simple top roping... The other two acquaintances did know how to build anchors without any problems and insisted they knew how to rig a rescue pulley in case anyone became stuck on a route. Soooo.... you didn't instantly begin to question their knowledge and ability when they mentioned they could rig a rescue pulley in case someone got stuck on a TR? I thought the moral of the story was that they don't have jumars in Minnesota.
Yeah it's not that hard to get up and out if you know what your doing, even just a little bit.
I tried to get the young woman to use jumars but she said she couldn't and was scared to. I figured it was much safer to rig a rescue pulley and simply haul her up and out.
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chadnsc
Dec 17, 2009, 7:47 PM
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Arrogant_Bastard wrote: chadnsc wrote: No because it's a top rope top belay with no real ground or escape from below. The climbs start out around 100' above Lake Superior, you rappel or lower down (depending on if you're leading or tope roping) and then climb back up to the anchor and your belayer (if you're top roping). If you’re toproping and you can't do the climb then you'll need to be hauled up and out. This is really only an issue with overhung routes. It can also become an issue if you're leading a route and it's beyond your ability as you simply can't down climb or lower off your last piece, you have to climb out. Let me get this straight, you rap down off the anchors and can get to the start of the climb, but if you fall during the climb you can no longer lower off to the start? Taking someone down into a climb-out scenario where they can't even dog the easiest route out is just plain fucking retarded. Everyone involved that day should take up golf.
I know. The bigger issue was that the young woman said she was a solid .11 climber and wanted to do .10b climb with a large 12 foot roof in the middle. She had no way to reach the ground as she was over water and no way to reach the 5.8 escape route that was a few hundred yards away. To say the route is committing is an understatement.
The boyfriend was confident he knew what he was doing and assured me that he could rig a rescue pulley if she did get stuck (she wouldn't though because she's a solid .11 climber). I asked him one last time before I left if he wanted me to leave my jumars and ascenders with him and he said "no, I know what I'm doing and I don't need them”.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Dec 17, 2009, 7:49 PM
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chadnsc wrote: k.l.k wrote: Arrogant_Bastard wrote: chadnsc wrote: Last year I was out with four acquaintances doing some simple top roping... The other two acquaintances did know how to build anchors without any problems and insisted they knew how to rig a rescue pulley in case anyone became stuck on a route. Soooo.... you didn't instantly begin to question their knowledge and ability when they mentioned they could rig a rescue pulley in case someone got stuck on a TR? I thought the moral of the story was that they don't have jumars in Minnesota. Yeah it's not that hard to get up and out if you know what your doing, even just a little bit. I tried to get the young woman to use jumars but she said she couldn't and was scared to. I figured it was much safer to rig a rescue pulley and simply haul her up and out.
This brings up a separate, yet similar problem I see out on the rock. Some people seem to enjoy spending absurd amounts of time reading through threads and every book they can get their hands on about Self Rescue. They are then so eager to show off what they know that they see rescue scenarios everywhere they look, even when simple solutions exist. I call it the Majid Sabet Syndrome, or MSS for short. I don't have numbers to back up my claim, but I believe that MSS is responsible for more cluster fuck situations than lack of knowledge. Keep your eye out for climbers suffering from MSS. They're usually identified by colorful charts, wearing helmets on the approach, and making 5:1 to pull their pathetic asses back up the approach at the end of the day.
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kriso9tails
Dec 17, 2009, 7:52 PM
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cracklover wrote: Okay, but what if we rope up, and there's a short stretch of 10+ crack in a long and committing climb? And you can't get up it to save your life? Okay, in this case, I should be able to get up it no problem. But only because I'm the stronger climber. If the tables were turned, we might be in real trouble.
That's an inconvenience for certain, but it it a safety issue per se? I've been on several different sides of that situation. In one case I had to down-climb and we backed off of the route from the base of the third (of three) pitches. In retrospect, I am 99% certain that I was being a pussy and just lost my nerve (on moves that were probably well within my ability). The pro was all bomber. We all lived. I didn't even have to leave any gear behind. Only my ego was bruised.
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kriso9tails
Dec 17, 2009, 7:54 PM
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On a side note, how did this thread suddenly become about climbing?
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Alpine07
Dec 17, 2009, 7:55 PM
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kriso9tails wrote: On a side note, how did this thread suddenly become about climbing?
I was just wondering that.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Dec 17, 2009, 7:57 PM
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Fixied.
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jcrew
Dec 17, 2009, 7:57 PM
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sbaclimber wrote: 28 pages and an animated GIF later...we have come full circle.... ...best thread in ages! 
too bad they had to ban CP in the process. sure, he may have gotten mad and issued a few death threats, ...............but who here hasn't? free CP! Save CP! otherwise, we'll just have the boring people left.
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chadnsc
Dec 17, 2009, 7:59 PM
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That is a good point AB, and I completely agree with you.
Rigging a rescue pulley was in no way needed. All the boyfriend and girlfriend had to do was have a pair of ascender and a bit of knowledge how to use them. It would have been much faster and easier for them to use ascenders when she first discovered she was stuck on the route.
One interesting thing was the inexperienced climber that called me told me about how the boyfriend kept trying to rig a rescue pulley when others were still in the general area. At any time he could have called for help from people a few hundred yards away but he didn't. The boyfriend kept saying he knew what he was doing and that they didn't need any help. After 20 minutes of failing to haul his girlfriend up least experienced person in their group decided to call me and ask for help.
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chadnsc
Dec 17, 2009, 8:00 PM
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jcrew wrote: sbaclimber wrote: 28 pages and an animated GIF later...we have come full circle.... ...best thread in ages! too bad they had to ban CP in the process. sure, he may have gotten mad and issued a few death threats, ...............but who here hasn't? free CP! Save CP! otherwise, we'll just have the boring people left.
Nuh uh! We still have. . . . oh damn. Well at least we have joggers nipple.
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Arrogant_Bastard
Dec 17, 2009, 8:01 PM
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kriso9tails wrote: cracklover wrote: Okay, but what if we rope up, and there's a short stretch of 10+ crack in a long and committing climb? And you can't get up it to save your life? Okay, in this case, I should be able to get up it no problem. But only because I'm the stronger climber. If the tables were turned, we might be in real trouble. That's an inconvenience for certain, but it it a safety issue per se? I've been on several different sides of that situation. In one case I had to down-climb and we backed off of the route from the base of the third (of three) pitches. In retrospect, I am 99% certain that I was being a pussy and just lost my nerve (on moves that were probably well within my ability). The pro was all bomber. We all lived. I didn't even have to leave any gear behind. Only my ego was bruised.
People climb stuff every day only to get bouted by some crack/slab/runout that they thought was well within their ability. That's all part of climbing IMHO. Completely different from someone with little experience representing themselves by what they sent in the gym or on some soft route/TR/pulled on gear.
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milesenoell
Dec 17, 2009, 8:19 PM
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To me, the situation Chad is describing is an anomaly. Maybe I just haven't climbed in places like that and they are more common than I think, but in general when I think about the dangers of someone misrepresenting their experience it is in one of two basic scenarios.
1) Someone says they are solid at at grade comfortably higher than that of a traverse you are considering. It seems like no problem because they really shouldn't fall, but the dangers of a fall are higher than on a nice clear vertical pitch. They may not even really understand, so they don't pipe up to say "that's an R rated fall and it's actually closer to a grade I might fall on than I should be fucking around with".
2) Someone shows up to a situation like Chad and A_B described where rescue skills are needed, few people are there to choose between for help, and person says "I know how to rig what you need", but hasn't ever really practiced it. Person fucks up the progress capture/builds an unstable anchor/un-clips a critical connection/etc. and drops the rescuee.
(I know, I know, scenario 2 has nothing to do with grades but it fits with the other stuff that has been getting tossed around with misrepresenting a person's skill level.)
(This post was edited by milesenoell on Dec 17, 2009, 8:21 PM)
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markc
Dec 17, 2009, 9:37 PM
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cracklover wrote: Arrogant_Bastard wrote: IsayAutumn wrote: If someone takes another person climbing for the first time and lies about his or her abilities, then it is completely on them if they should "deck." Although, I would be surprised if the situation you described has actually ever happened in real life. Are you kidding? I think it happens a fair amount on one level or another. Most often it's a gym rat who doesn't have much outdoor experience, or know how to build a SRENE anchor, or whatnot, trying to impress a girl. A few years ago, a guy in SLC claiming to be a "solid" climber took a girl climbing for the first time. He didn't know you were supposed to put biners through the webbing before running the rope through it. After getting to the top of the TR he'd set, she got lowered about 10 feet before the nylon webbing burned through. She survived the fall, but was permanently paralyzed. GO
I thought of that exact case. He wanted to impress her and said he was an expert climber. She didn't know any better, not having any experience, and was paralyzed as a result. There, someone misrepresenting their knowledge/abilities had life-altering consequences.
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clausti
Dec 17, 2009, 10:06 PM
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gmggg wrote: clausti wrote: kriso9tails wrote: I didn't really say it was a matter of dishonesty. cracklover wrote: And this miscommunication can result in way worse than just a frustratingly slow climbing day. Hoo boy. What will it result in? If someone gets in over their head grade-wise while climbing, it means that they're going to fall. So what? The severity of that fall is almost always going to come down to how responsible they are with their climbing. i guess the specific scenerio i was thinking of was: guy (who says he's solid) takes girl climbing for the first time. one cursory belay lesson later guy climbs climb (that he's "solid" at) and falls. and decks, because girl thought he was "solid." or because he didn't teach her to belay properly, because he didn't want to take the time, or explain to her that he really truely might fall, or whatever. but i guess that's more of a belayingg problem then a "solid" problem. unless she also said she was a "solid" belayer. Sexist!!
you find me any story of it happening with the genders reversed and i'll change my story to gender-neutral pronouns.
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