There is no expectation that those close to the incident need to make forums posts.

Though when people come to a forum and make lengthy posts and detail that they know what happened but they aren't telling it is just misguided.

Instead people close to the accident have posted vague descriptions of system failure and it just encourages speculation.

I wonder if the community might benefit from a more anonymized system for reporting the details of incidents or something, because it seems like this conflict comes up perennially.


Get well soon.

Majid, you have let yourself become a caricature whether you know it or not. Any accident draws you to post like flies are drawn to honey water.

You have NO right to ask about details from this incident at this point. Are you special? Is the climbing community, who I assume you will claim you are asking for, due special consideration? At this point a fellow climber is fighting for his life, and you want details NOW for your personal satisfaction? Please respect the climber's friends and families.

Take a step back, and respect the fact that the details are not out there yet. When they are, you can analyze them until you are blue in the teeth. Just do it in a different thread, maybe something displaying your vast experience in the title. You can chest thump, draw arrows, and advocate rapping on dissected ropes there, and the real world can choose to ignore you.

Where have you ever posted your mistakes? I bet you made some. If you were seriously injured would you like your parents stumbling across a majid-did-this-wrong-thread?

Mike - I don't know you but I am hoping for the best outcome for you. Best wishes,

People should take a look at the type of people who have responded to this thread - The more experienced climbers have overwhelmingly acknowledged that in climbing (and life) accidents happen. Look up the definition of "accident" - act of God. In this situation there are really just a limited number of possible causes - I'm sure most of you could enumerate them. I highly doubt the cause of this accident has never happened before and will never happen again - all the micro analyzing isn't going to reveal anything new but will lead to hard feelings. Here is a question for all you hand wringers demanding full disclosure - do you try and rehash every automobile accident you see or hear about? Is the only thing that is going to let you live through your commute in MA knowing all the details or a fatality in CA? For everyone of you that gets hurt in a climbing accident therer will be 10 of you that get hurt in a car accident.

well said

Honestly Jay, I don't think its going to be one of those learning examples. I mean, maybe in a "scared straight" sort of way that screws with your head everytime you climb sort of learning example. The best we can do is read our freedom of the hills and be on point everytime we climb. Focusing on accidents and what causes them is negative...it brings negative thoughts. We should focus on what we have control of when it comes to climbing, because that is positive and gives us power. Some things are out of our control...

Except for the youngins/newbs...they should all be forced to watch videos of people making mistakes and the consequences.

Honestly Jay, I don't think its going to be one of those learning examples. I mean, maybe in a "scared straight" sort of way that screws with your head everytime you climb sort of learning example. The best we can do is read our freedom of the hills and be on point everytime we climb. Focusing on accidents and what causes them is negative...it brings negative thoughts. We should focus on what we have control of when it comes to climbing, because that is positive and gives us power. Some things are out of our control...

Well, there are 3 speculations floating around as to what went wrong...
1. Failure to belay. Solution: Find someone who doesn't fail to belay.
2. He skipped a bolt. Solution: Don't skip a bolt.
3. He was going for the fourth bolt and from the logistics of the climb, groundfall is likely when going for the fourth bolt, just because of the position of the bolt and and the way the rockface is leaning. Solution: Don't climb climbs where groundfall is likely?
Alright then. So, Jay, what did you learn.

I would like to again stress that no one is saying there will not be a full analysis of this accident at some point. However, that point is not right now.

There is a current lack of knowledge about what actually took place during the accident. The people who actually have the facts about the accident are currently very occupied with much more important matters.

Again, the family (and the belayer) of the person involved in the accident are simply asking for time and patience as they try to help the injured climber and to heal themselves before dealing with hashing out the details of the accident. That is not an unreasonable request on their part.

Honestly Jay, I don't think its going to be one of those learning examples.

We don't have the information as to what went wrong. Its not available.

I didn't make any conclusions. No one can til we have all of the information. The 3 speculations I listed were discussed on redriverclimbing as possibilities as to what happened, based on the information from one of the rescuers.
There is not always something to be learned from accidents. Sorry. That is not ALWAYS true. Sometimes accidents are preventable, and sometimes they aren't. We are human and prone to error. Its easy for us to sit at our computer and decide that if we know all of the information, we could have made different decisions, and maybe that is true, and maybe next time the accident will be you or me.
No one is witholding information. I think the belayer, who is the one with all of the information at this point, is probably more concerned with his friend than posting on rockclimbing.com to tell us what happened and have jay and majid criticize what happened.