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colatownkid
Apr 27, 2010, 7:26 PM
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dingus wrote: sidepull wrote: colatownkid wrote: angry wrote: Does climbing 5.13 mean that you might have more mileage on the rock than the 5.10 or 5.11 climber? Not to refute your point but so often the sound, reasonable, and seasoned comments are ignored by some loudmouth who's been climbing for 2 years. How am I (or others) supposed to react? There were a lot of things I thought I was right about 2 years in that I was completely wrong about. The grade shouldn't be the issue, experience should be. Then again, experience gets conflated with years climbing and the word experience loses meaning. i feel this whole wisdom/intelligence/experience/difficulty thing boils down to a combination of these parts and an explicit understanding of how one goes about defining and relating them. the intelligent climber probably learns very quickly. therefore, they may be knowledgeable while lacking a large amount of experience. the experienced climber may or may not climb hard, but they have almost certainly seen some things that the rest of us can learn from. the climber who can crank the 5.whatever or the Vridiculous is not necessarily experienced, intelligent, or wise. finally, the wise climber is probably just keeping their mouth shut. point is, the validity of one's statement about a particular topic could depend on difficulty, experience, or intelligence, none of which are necessarily related (though people assume they are). also, i find the notion that experience can be measured in number of years climbing to be bogus. your average weekend warrior may get out one or two weekends a month, which translates to 25ish climbing days per year. In one summer it's possible to road trip for a few months and accrue the equivalent of "two years" (or more) worth of experience. not to mention, climbers tend to have rather inflated ideas about the number of days they actually climb. a similar argument applies to experience and difficulty. Great comment and well put. Gym days only count as 1/17th of a real day of climbing, DMT
naturally. unless you sent your proj or the pink route, in which case it counts as 4/5th.
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jt512
Apr 27, 2010, 7:27 PM
Post #52 of 118
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moose_droppings wrote: jay wrote: 2 ratings, 3 stars: 1 user got it and 1 didn't. Jay Unless both were ambivalent about it.
Not likely. My posts don't engender ambivalence, as a rule. Besides, Johnwesely has already copped to the 5-star rating. I doubt the 1-star person will have the guts to come forward.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Apr 27, 2010, 7:28 PM)
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cracklover
Apr 27, 2010, 7:39 PM
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hugepedro wrote: jt512 wrote: curt wrote: jt512 wrote: curt wrote: For example, top-roping on a static rope may not get you killed, but isn't necessarily a good idea--unless the route being top-roped is so high that the stretch from a normal dynamic rope could result in the climber decking near the start of the climb. Every gym I've climbed in uses static ropes for TR routes. Technically, they're "low-stretch" ropes, but they're what climbers typically refer to as "static ropes." Jay Sounds unnecessarily painful to me. Why? Do they just last longer? Curt Yes, they last longer. I don't think it's all that painful. They stretch enough for a top rope fall. I wouldn't want to take a lead fall on one, though. Jay Last longer, and cheaper price, usually. I've seen guides using them outdoors with large groups. New belayers + new climbers + 60' toprope route = potential injury on a dynamic rope if the climber falls before they get 10 feet off the ground.
How bizarre! Are you guys sure about that? I've climbed in about a dozen gyms, and only one of them used static ropes. Somehow the gyms y'all have climbed in are almost opposite to mine?
Most gyms I've been in use what's marketed as "gym rope", which is a rope with a high fraction of the weight in the sheath (so it lasts longer). These lower stretch gym ropes are *very* different from true static ropes.
Static ropes have a stretch of less than 6% at 10% of their MBS, and often have as little as 1 or 2% stretch if tested in similar conditions to the standard "static" test for dynamic ropes. They may even have low stretch material like polyester in place of some or all of the nylon.
Gym ropes, on the other hand, are essentially standard dynamic climbing ropes, but with a beefy sheath.
Typical gym rope: http://www.sterlingrope.com/...246835/GR/_/Rock_Gym
Typical static rope: http://shop.pmirope.com/...;productMasterID=677
GO
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cchas
Apr 27, 2010, 7:58 PM
Post #54 of 118
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angry wrote: Does climbing 5.13 mean that you might have more mileage on the rock than the 5.10 or 5.11 climber? Not to refute your point but so often the sound, reasonable, and seasoned comments are ignored by some loudmouth who's been climbing for 2 years. How am I (or others) supposed to react? There were a lot of things I thought I was right about 2 years in that I was completely wrong about. The grade shouldn't be the issue, experience should be. Then again, experience gets conflated with years climbing and the word experience loses meaning.
The issue lies in someone who has climbed 20 years but their experience level never rises past someone who has 1 year of experience. Years and grades don't denote experience but the quality of the experience. I hate to say this (since this is a vast generalization) but it often occurs when someone doesn't step outside of their comfort zone, so they never improve. (but hey I'm being elitist again).
Now does an "experienced" climbers point of view any more valid then a beginners. Depends on the subject. If it is on gear placement, risk analysis,.... damn straight experience counts.
If its on value subjects, then the beginners and the experienced persons point of view is just as valid.
(This post was edited by cchas on Apr 27, 2010, 8:12 PM)
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dingus
Apr 27, 2010, 8:13 PM
Post #55 of 118
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cchas wrote: angry wrote: Does climbing 5.13 mean that you might have more mileage on the rock than the 5.10 or 5.11 climber? Not to refute your point but so often the sound, reasonable, and seasoned comments are ignored by some loudmouth who's been climbing for 2 years. How am I (or others) supposed to react? There were a lot of things I thought I was right about 2 years in that I was completely wrong about. The grade shouldn't be the issue, experience should be. Then again, experience gets conflated with years climbing and the word experience loses meaning. The issue lies in someone who has climbed 20 years but their experience level never rises past someone who has 1 year of experience. Years and grades don't denote experience but the quality of the experience. I hate to say this (since this is a vast generalization) but it often occurs when someone doesn't step outside of their comfort zone, so they never improve. (but hey I'm being elitist again).
Guys? Its not *really* an issue is it? I mean, like... we can tell?
Just a few posts is often more than enough, to get the smell of climbing spirit.
Oh and please spare me the 'but the noobs! think of the poor noobs!!!111'
In reply to: Come here Dingus. Let me tell you something. FUCK... the noobs.
DMT
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hugepedro
Apr 27, 2010, 8:20 PM
Post #56 of 118
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cracklover wrote: hugepedro wrote: jt512 wrote: curt wrote: jt512 wrote: curt wrote: For example, top-roping on a static rope may not get you killed, but isn't necessarily a good idea--unless the route being top-roped is so high that the stretch from a normal dynamic rope could result in the climber decking near the start of the climb. Every gym I've climbed in uses static ropes for TR routes. Technically, they're "low-stretch" ropes, but they're what climbers typically refer to as "static ropes." Jay Sounds unnecessarily painful to me. Why? Do they just last longer? Curt Yes, they last longer. I don't think it's all that painful. They stretch enough for a top rope fall. I wouldn't want to take a lead fall on one, though. Jay Last longer, and cheaper price, usually. I've seen guides using them outdoors with large groups. New belayers + new climbers + 60' toprope route = potential injury on a dynamic rope if the climber falls before they get 10 feet off the ground. How bizarre! Are you guys sure about that? I've climbed in about a dozen gyms, and only one of them used static ropes. Somehow the gyms y'all have climbed in are almost opposite to mine? Most gyms I've been in use what's marketed as "gym rope", which is a rope with a high fraction of the weight in the sheath (so it lasts longer). These lower stretch gym ropes are *very* different from true static ropes. Static ropes have a stretch of less than 6% at 10% of their MBS, and often have as little as 1 or 2% stretch if tested in similar conditions to the standard "static" test for dynamic ropes. They may even have low stretch material like polyester in place of some or all of the nylon. Gym ropes, on the other hand, are essentially standard dynamic climbing ropes, but with a beefy sheath. Typical gym rope: http://www.sterlingrope.com/...246835/GR/_/Rock_Gym Typical static rope: http://shop.pmirope.com/...;productMasterID=677 GO
I'm totally serial. Seen like a half dozen routes or more all strung up with static line topropes, on more than one occasion.
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flamer
Apr 27, 2010, 8:33 PM
Post #57 of 118
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gunkiemike wrote: - Gasoline, oil, WD-40 will damage nylon. Caution is prudent. Blowing smoke out your a$$ when you don't know what you're talking about OTOH...
You're seriously calling that a myth?
josh
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redlude97
Apr 27, 2010, 8:39 PM
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flamer wrote: gunkiemike wrote: - Gasoline, oil, WD-40 will damage nylon. Caution is prudent. Blowing smoke out your a$$ when you don't know what you're talking about OTOH... You're seriously calling that a myth? josh
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hafilax
Apr 27, 2010, 8:44 PM
Post #59 of 118
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Don't forget cat piss. Why do cats love to pee on ropes anyway?
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edge
Apr 27, 2010, 9:02 PM
Post #60 of 118
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I lost my falsehood in the war.
Makes it hard to pee in the woods.
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flamer
Apr 27, 2010, 9:03 PM
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I'm saying that there is alot of information out there, on both sides of the issue.
Some very reliable sources say that gasoline(and the other chemicals mentioned) have no negative effect on Nylon.
Some very reliable sources say the exact opposite.
Some sources say that Nylon is extremely resistant to UV degradation! We've all seen how that works out.
So what I'm saying is....if multiple different and reliable sources give completely opposing answers, how can it be called a myth?
I'm not planning on soaking any of my nylon climbing bits in any chemical.
josh
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johnwesely
Apr 27, 2010, 9:17 PM
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flamer wrote: I'm not planning on soaking any of my nylon climbing bits in any chemical. josh
What about water?
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redlude97
Apr 27, 2010, 9:17 PM
Post #63 of 118
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flamer wrote: I'm saying that there is alot of information out there, on both sides of the issue. Some very reliable sources say that gasoline(and the other chemicals mentioned) have no negative effect on Nylon. Some very reliable sources say the exact opposite. Some sources say that Nylon is extremely resistant to UV degradation! We've all seen how that works out. So what I'm saying is....if multiple different and reliable sources give completely opposing answers, how can it be called a myth? I'm not planning on soaking any of my nylon climbing bits in any chemical. josh
(This post was edited by redlude97 on Apr 27, 2010, 9:23 PM)
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d0nk3yk0n9
Apr 27, 2010, 9:21 PM
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johnwesely wrote: flamer wrote: I'm not planning on soaking any of my nylon climbing bits in any chemical. josh What about water?
Or air.
On second thought, has anyone investigated the interaction between nylon rope and air? Is it safe to keep storing my rope immersed in air!?
/sarcasm
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cracklover
Apr 27, 2010, 9:44 PM
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It's been a while since this one made the circuit, but for a long time the idea that marking your rope with sharpie would damage it was coming up every couple of months on internet sites.
GO
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gunkiemike
Apr 27, 2010, 10:09 PM
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flamer wrote: I'm saying that there is alot of information out there, on both sides of the issue. Some very reliable sources say that gasoline(and the other chemicals mentioned) have no negative effect on Nylon. Some very reliable sources say the exact opposite. Some sources say that Nylon is extremely resistant to UV degradation! We've all seen how that works out. So what I'm saying is....if multiple different and reliable sources give completely opposing answers, how can it be called a myth? I'm not planning on soaking any of my nylon climbing bits in any chemical. josh
Go ask the folks who design non-metallic parts for gasoline systems (fuel pumps and the like). You'll find Nylon in there. Then go search the rope manufacturers' sites. IIRC at least a couple of them mention that gasoline won't hurt ropes. Then go check the general chemical literature for polymer-solvent compatibility.
See how those sources stack up against the Net bloviators who preach gloom & doom re. gasoline.
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bill413
Apr 27, 2010, 11:56 PM
Post #68 of 118
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redlude97 wrote: flamer wrote: gunkiemike wrote: - Gasoline, oil, WD-40 will damage nylon. Caution is prudent. Blowing smoke out your a$$ when you don't know what you're talking about OTOH... You're seriously calling that a myth? josh Are you saying you believe gasoline damages nylon?
It sure does when it's lit.
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hugepedro
Apr 28, 2010, 12:16 AM
Post #69 of 118
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cracklover wrote: hafilax wrote: Don't forget cat piss. Why do cats love to pee on ropes anyway? No this one's actually real! Believe it or not, someone did a study and included cat pee! No doubt they meant it to be funny, but it really did have an impact on the force that could be held. GO
Uric acid?
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hugepedro
Apr 28, 2010, 12:19 AM
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bill413 wrote: redlude97 wrote: flamer wrote: gunkiemike wrote: - Gasoline, oil, WD-40 will damage nylon. Caution is prudent. Blowing smoke out your a$$ when you don't know what you're talking about OTOH... You're seriously calling that a myth? josh Are you saying you believe gasoline damages nylon? It sure does when it's lit.
Crap. No more nighttime flaming snake of wonder climbs for me, I guess. And that was a good move too.
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rtwilli4
Apr 28, 2010, 8:23 AM
Post #71 of 118
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gunkiemike wrote: - Dropped gear must be retired due to the risk of microfractures. A perennial tackle box favorite.
So just yesterday I had a client drop a quick draw 300 feet onto a boulder field. You're saying that I should just mix it right back in with my other draws? I think not.
50 or 100 feet, sure... or if it landed in the dirt of bushes, then I'd use it again. It depends on the situation.
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USnavy
Apr 28, 2010, 8:44 AM
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rtwilli4 wrote: gunkiemike wrote: - Dropped gear must be retired due to the risk of microfractures. A perennial tackle box favorite. So just yesterday I had a client drop a quick draw 300 feet onto a boulder field. You're saying that I should just mix it right back in with my other draws? I think not. 50 or 100 feet, sure... or if it landed in the dirt of bushes, then I'd use it again. It depends on the situation.
(This post was edited by USnavy on Apr 28, 2010, 8:45 AM)
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airscape
Apr 28, 2010, 9:01 AM
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hafilax wrote: Don't forget cat piss. Why do cats love to pee on ropes anyway?
Becuase you didn't get a dog.
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squiros
Apr 28, 2010, 9:50 AM
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i'm no chemical engineer, but -
nylon 6,6 is repeating units of hexanedioic acid and hexamethyldiamine. i would expect properties close to hexanamide. since the ropes can work when wet, i'll assume the alpha carbon isn't susceptible to a hydroxyl attack, even assuming acidic conditions (acid rain, anyone?). however, i can't shake the feeling that 6 carbons is a long way from polar, making gasoline (all 50 bajillion constituents) a possible solvent. gasoline being mostly simple branched alkanes from as short as butane to octane. from a simple google search, it looks like a few methyl branches, but nothing too fancy, with only a small amount of aromatics. the aromatics are also cause for worry, you can never trust those pi clouds - but aromatics are usually indifferent. i'll leave it as a question for the chemical engineer, what is the gibbs free energy of benzene (or methylbenz) with hexanamide, ketones or secondary amines? furthermore, it's not clear to me that climbing rope is made of nylon. the industrial term 'nylon' covers too many polymers to be elucidating - so i'm sure there is some version of nylon that's resistant to gasoline. polyethylene and aramids are common place in climbing ropes. at this point, gasoline could disrupt some of the pi bonds that aromatics use to stack. whether or not this effect is significant is beyond me - but even if it were significant, it'd only reduce the kevlar to the strength of nylon 6,6 (assuming no other RxNs). maybe the chem eng would know - or maybe somebody needs to go outside with a rope, some gasoline and a 200 lb weight.
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granite_grrl
Apr 28, 2010, 11:51 AM
Post #75 of 118
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rtwilli4 wrote: gunkiemike wrote: - Dropped gear must be retired due to the risk of microfractures. A perennial tackle box favorite. So just yesterday I had a client drop a quick draw 300 feet onto a boulder field. You're saying that I should just mix it right back in with my other draws? I think not. 50 or 100 feet, sure... or if it landed in the dirt of bushes, then I'd use it again. It depends on the situation.
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