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lrossi


Jul 2, 2010, 3:05 AM
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Re: [Skyline] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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If you were aware he had climbed past the middle, all sorts of alarms should have gone off in your head about amping up the caution level.

As to whether or not you're legally responsible ... I agree with what reno said.


socalclimber


Jul 2, 2010, 3:06 AM
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Re: [dugl33] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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Yup, I remember that one.

People are just not paying attention, and they don't know what they are doing.

The new breed of climber wants to spray endlessly, and short cut experience.

You just don't learn this stuff over night, it takes years.


jt512


Jul 2, 2010, 3:11 AM
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Re: [Skyline] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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Skyline wrote:

He wants me to pay for all the medical bills ($3000 - $5000), his motel on the way home (I slept in the truck because he wasn’t talking to me), replacing the two pieces of gear left on the route, and any work that he might lose as a result of the finger surgery. Seems to me we should share in this cost. What do you think?

I'm neither a lawyer, an ethicist, or a boxer, but I think the only thing you "owe" Ed is a punch in the face. For the legalities, look up "assumption of risk." For the ethics, look up "personal responsibility." For the punch in the face, look up "asshole."

Jay


reno


Jul 2, 2010, 3:30 AM
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Re: [Skyline] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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Skyline wrote:
Now I really wanted to be tied into the bottom of the rope, but couldn’t let go of my brake hand on the belay.

Without offering an opinion on the legal stuff, I re-read this, and wanted to comment:

You need to learn to tie a knot in the rope behind the belay device with one hand.

It's not difficult. It takes some practice, sure, but it can be done. I've done it wearing mittens.

Lastly, you mention this:

In reply to:
The problem was, now my attention was on him, up to my left and not on the rope.

That part right there is where you fucked up.

Don't do it again. You're the belayer... you should ALWAYS be paying attention to the rope. Where is it? How much is left? Do I need to stop lowering my leader and tie a knot?

You're the BELAYER, dude. You're entire world should consist of the rope.


socalclimber


Jul 2, 2010, 3:47 AM
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Re: [reno] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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reno wrote:
Skyline wrote:
Now I really wanted to be tied into the bottom of the rope, but couldn’t let go of my brake hand on the belay.

Without offering an opinion on the legal stuff, I re-read this, and wanted to comment:

You need to learn to tie a knot in the rope behind the belay device with one hand.

It's not difficult. It takes some practice, sure, but it can be done. I've done it wearing mittens.

Lastly, you mention this:

In reply to:
The problem was, now my attention was on him, up to my left and not on the rope.

That part right there is where you fucked up.

Don't do it again. You're the belayer... you should ALWAYS be paying attention to the rope. Where is it? How much is left? Do I need to stop lowering my leader and tie a knot?

You're the BELAYER, dude. You're entire world should consist of the rope.

I agree and disagree with you here.

You should be doing both. Of course always know where the ends of the rope are, but you also need to be paying attention to what is happening with the person on the sharp end as well.

What happens if you are paying total attention to the rope, and the person you are lowering knocks a loose block off? What if they don't have time to yell rock, or don't do it at all?

You have a problem. A big problem.


(This post was edited by socalclimber on Jul 2, 2010, 3:49 AM)


jt512


Jul 2, 2010, 3:49 AM
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Re: [reno] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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reno wrote:
Skyline wrote:
Now I really wanted to be tied into the bottom of the rope, but couldn’t let go of my brake hand on the belay.

Without offering an opinion on the legal stuff, I re-read this, and wanted to comment:

You need to learn to tie a knot in the rope behind the belay device with one hand.

That might be a useful skill to have, but the usual solution for this situation is the mule knot, which can be tied with the rope locked off.

Jay


curt


Jul 2, 2010, 4:07 AM
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Re: [Skyline] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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Skyline wrote:
Ed was leading a single pitch climb: The plan was for him to lead and belay me up from the top. It is Ed’s standard practice to belay the second from the middle of the rope, the second being tied in with a figure-eight knot clipped to their harness.

This is a new concept to me. All of my previous climbing experiences would have me tie into the bottom of the rope as the second before the leader goes up to prevent any chance of the end of the rope going through the belay device.
The advantage of Ed’s system is that it’s more expedient, since the rest of the rope doesn’t need to be pulled up by the leader before the second can begin climbing. However, it negates the possibility of either tying a stopper knot in the end of the rope (which could easily get snagged) or tying in to the bottom of the rope.

We had both looked at the route in the book. It was unstated whether a 60m rope was enough for this route. The description of the next route over said ‘use a 60m.’ Ed said ’I hope we don’t f**k ourselves using one rope’.

We talked briefly about communicating if we couldn’t hear each other when he was at the top. (3 tugs from Ed = off belay, 3 tugs from me = climbing, 3 tugs from Ed = on belay ).
Since this was an exposed belay spot, Ed placed a big cam in front of me to tie into. It was a marginal placement, but better than nothing. The rope was in the rope bag resting in a ‘slot’ to my right. The slot was about 18” deep, 18” wide, and 3’ long – just big enough to hold the rope.

Ed began the lead with a blue sky and moderate winds. By the time he was halfway up the route, the sky had darkened and there were very imposing black clouds bearing down on us. I yelled up “We might get wet.” Ed said ‘thanks for letting me know’ and hastened his progress.

When the halfway mark came through the belay device, I yelled ‘Ed, halfway’. He said “OK”, and continued up 15 or so feet further.

At the top, he yelled ‘slack’, then ‘I’m putting the rope through the chains, and you can lower me’
Now I really wanted to be tied into the bottom of the rope, but couldn’t let go of my brake hand on the belay. Looking at the rope in that slot, I knew I’d need two hands to find the bottom, which was not an option. I noticed that I could climb to my left for 8 or 10 feet if I needed to get higher at the end of the belay to get Ed down to the ground, so I decided to put on my climbing shoes with one hand still on the belay brake. By the time I had one shoe on, Ed yelled ‘take and lower’. It was blowing harder now, and the storm was getting close.

I lowered Ed slowly and he took out gear on his way down. When he was about 30 above me, a nut popped out of its spot and hit him on the leg. He said ’I’m ok, don’t worry about it’. I think he said ‘I’ll leave the last two pieces for you to take out’.

The problem was, now my attention was on him, up to my left and not on the rope. I was still anchored in. I forgot about the rope, and lowered him down right next to where I was standing. As his feet almost touched down on the rock beside me, the end of the rope went through the belay device, and Ed was falling.

He was leaning back, so when the rope went slack he tipped back and fell 15 or 20’ to the rock below, landing hard on his left butt cheek. He came off that rock and rolled through a scrubby tree, landing mostly on ground about 10’ lower. There were some smaller rocks on the ground, and I think that’s where he broke his finger. He was not wearing a helmet. It was a miracle he survived.

I know it is my job as belayer to keep my leader safe, and that my inattention definitely led to this outcome. Believe me, I feel terrible about the accident. I know I will never, ever let anyone go up a pitch without being tied in or having a stopper knot in the bottom of the rope.

My question is this – does Ed share any responsibility morally, ethically, or financially (medical bills) for this? Is he not complicit in any way, (as he claims) in sharing any responsibility? I contend that he knew the risk of going up without the rope being secured on a long route just to save himself the minute or two of pulling up extra rope at the top.

He wants me to pay for all the medical bills ($3000 - $5000), his motel on the way home (I slept in the truck because he wasn’t talking to me), replacing the two pieces of gear left on the route, and any work that he might lose as a result of the finger surgery. Seems to me we should share in this cost. What do you think?

Ed is an idiot and an asshole whereas you're merely incompetent. As Roy said, you don't owe him anything and, as JT said, see "assumption of risk" for further reference.

Curt


Slider173


Jul 2, 2010, 4:13 AM
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Re: [j_ung] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
Every so often people post things here that make me think they just don't understand the level of responsibility that is inherent in climbing. Very rarely, however, that lack of understanding seems so profound that I write something like this: I think this a fortuitous wake up call for both you. Quit climbing now. Please tell Ed I said the same for him.

Great post! This is exactly what, as a skydiving instructor, I said many times to both "experienced" jumpers and students. You were blessed or lucky to come out of that alive. Now go home and do not come back.

As for the OP question, by all means get a lawyer. It sounds like you will need one or more. But yes you have responsibilities too and as a friend should already be offering to help in any way you can. One day you, as all of us, will be greeted by death and after that there will be very lilttle you can do to help anyone again.


jt512


Jul 2, 2010, 4:46 AM
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Re: [Slider173] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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Slider173 wrote:
As for the OP question, by all means get a lawyer. It sounds like you will need one or more.

This is the second time in the thread that someone has recommended that the OP get a lawyer, and, as I understand it, albeit from a lay perspective, there is no reason that he should fear legal action. I would think that any competent attorney would not take Ed's case, because, owing to the defense of assumption of risk, a lawsuit would be all but hopeless.

Jay


justroberto


Jul 2, 2010, 5:22 AM
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Re: [Skyline] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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The cynic in me wants to believe that this is T2+. It's just too descriptive and too stupid.

If it is not, I'm fairly certain that any lawyer would tell you not to put your account into writing on the intardwebs.


milesenoell


Jul 2, 2010, 5:49 AM
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Re: [redlude97] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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redlude97 wrote:
why wasn't the end of the rope tied into the rope bag?

My thoughts exactly.


JimTitt


Jul 2, 2010, 6:28 AM
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Re: [Skyline] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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Any chance of posting you real names so we can be sure never to climb with you?


shimanilami


Jul 2, 2010, 6:54 AM
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Re: [carabiner96] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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carabiner96 wrote:
... you fucked up, but it was a team effort in teh fuckery, it sounds like.

That is classic and true.


vegastradguy


Jul 2, 2010, 7:47 AM
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Re: [jt512] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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jt512 wrote:
Slider173 wrote:
As for the OP question, by all means get a lawyer. It sounds like you will need one or more.

This is the second time in the thread that someone has recommended that the OP get a lawyer, and, as I understand it, albeit from a lay perspective, there is no reason that he should fear legal action. I would think that any competent attorney would not take Ed's case, because, owing to the defense of assumption of risk, a lawsuit would be all but hopeless.

Jay

I agree, but that may or may not prevent ed from finding a lawyer who would at least give it a go. having a lawyer (or at least finding one you could retain in the event of a lawsuit) is probably prudent here if Ed is truly bitching about compensation for lost work, medical bills, etc, etc- if he's that pissed, he may find a lawyer willing to give a lawsuit a go.


cantbuymefriends


Jul 2, 2010, 9:22 AM
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Re: [shoo] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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Skyline wrote:
Now I really wanted to be tied into the bottom of the rope, but couldn’t let go of my brake hand on the belay. Looking at the rope in that slot, I knew I’d need two hands to find the bottom, which was not an option.

I noticed that I could climb to my left for 8 or 10 feet if I needed to get higher at the end of the belay to get Ed down to the ground, so I decided to put on my climbing shoes with one hand still on the belay brake. By the time I had one shoe on, Ed yelled ‘take and lower’. It was blowing harder now, and the storm was getting close.
You can put your climbing shoes on with one hand, but you need both hands to find the end of the rope, tie off the belay device, or make a stopper knot anywhere on the rope??

And also, what made you change your mind about him belaying you from the top, when you both knew that the rope was too short for lowering?
(And, how did you expect to get you both down if you'd stuck with the original plan, knowing that the rope was too short?)

(This post was edited by cantbuymefriends on Jul 2, 2010, 12:41 PM)


Partner macherry


Jul 2, 2010, 1:37 PM
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Re: [cantbuymefriends] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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this thread has it all, bigtime noobery, asshattery, and some really good posts.


if only ed would show up


mikebee


Jul 2, 2010, 1:58 PM
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Re: [macherry] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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If I was in the situation you were, ie lowering, or about to lower someone who is past the half way of the rope, regardless of the incoming weather or their rush to get home or whatever, I'd secure the end of the rope before lowering any further and while it is still in the forefront of my mind.
Learn the Mule knot to tie off your belay device to free both hands, and then find the end of the rope, and stick a stopper knot in it, or better yet, tie it to your harness as it should have been in the first place.


billcoe_


Jul 2, 2010, 2:45 PM
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Re: [mikebee] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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Ed, as the leader and having missed simply tieing a knot in the end, is 100% responsible for all of his bills. He sounds lucky to have lived. Climbing is damn dangerous as you just learned and there's a shit load of things that can go wrong.

You, on the other hand, need to get your shit together. You are 100% responsible for missing an obvious safety issue. It could happen to anyone, but it did happen to you. Get your shit together or quit climbing.

ps, Jay normally gives good advice, but don't punch Ed in the face. It may be the old school way to resolve issues - but that's called "assault": which involves legal recriminations on you - and you can look that up too.


roy_hinkley_jr


Jul 2, 2010, 2:48 PM
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Re: [JimTitt] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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JimTitt wrote:
Any chance of posting you real names so we can be sure never to climb with you?

I'd suspect that the OP will now be the best belayer on the planet and anally safety conscious. Meanwhile Ed will still be a prick.


bill413


Jul 2, 2010, 4:50 PM
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Re: [curt] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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curt wrote:
Ed is an idiot and an asshole whereas you're merely incompetent.

Agreed.


donald949


Jul 2, 2010, 5:38 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
This whole thing is pathetic at best.

Welcome to the new breed of climber...

Often times I think you're a little harsh. This isn't one of them.
LOL.

You both where harsh, but I have to concur with you both.
This ain't no day hike people. If you can't think on your feet, then stay in the gym.


lena_chita
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Jul 2, 2010, 5:58 PM
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Re: [donald949] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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donald949 wrote:
j_ung wrote:
socalclimber wrote:
This whole thing is pathetic at best.

Welcome to the new breed of climber...

Often times I think you're a little harsh. This isn't one of them.
LOL.

You both where harsh, but I have to concur with you both.
This ain't no day hike people. If you can't think on your feet, then stay in the gym.

Right, because no one ever gets hurt in the gym, I must have dreamed up all those "I got dropped in a gym" threads.


fresh


Jul 2, 2010, 6:16 PM
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Re: [j_ung] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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j_ung wrote:
Every so often people post things here that make me think they just don't understand the level of responsibility that is inherent in climbing. Very rarely, however, that lack of understanding seems so profound that I write something like this: I think this a fortuitous wake up call for both you. Quit climbing now. Please tell Ed I said the same for him.
actually to me, Skyline seems like a decent dude who wants to do the right thing. incompetence is curable! I'm happy to have him in the community. (fuck Ed though, seriously.)

someone said that only the last few paragraphs were necessary. I actually think that the whole writeup is really interesting, because it illustrates a partner dynamic that set the stage pretty well for an accident. it's well-documented that accidents happen when subordinates don't speak up about problems, and/or when leaders don't listen to the issues subordinates do bring up. I'm not trying to lay judgment, but just to illustrate, Skyline didn't push several issues that threw flags to him, like:

1. climbing a route that they weren't sure a 60m rope would be sufficient for.
2. tying in midway through the rope. seems like he thought something like "I guess it'll be ok..."
3. belaying at a place where he didn't feel comfortable. also, Ed placed a piece that Skyline felt was marginal, but Skyline still used it.
4. "We might get wet!" is kind of a passive suggestion to get the fuck on with the climb.
5. "Ed, halfway!" OK, great. but then Ed continues climbing, and Skyline doesn't say anything.
6. when Ed reached the top, they could clearly communicate. maybe Skyline could have said "can you tie into the anchor, I need to tie into the other end of the rope!"
7. he didn't question Ed not taking out the last two pieces. seriously, wtf! Ed's clearly in a better position to clean them, and there's clearly no reason for Skyline to want to climb in a storm. he also didn't ask Ed to repeat himself when he wasn't sure what he said.

again, it's really easy to sit here and say "oh I'd do this totally differently," that's not what I'm saying at all. I think the main thing leading to this accident is the partner dynamic. maybe Ed is an overbearing dick, maybe he's more experienced. but for whatever reason, Skyline really seems to not feel comfortable bringing up issues during the climb. throw in a lapse of judgment under pressure, and you get a busted ass and broken finger.

Skyline, thanks for sharing.. not sure about the legal stuff, but I do hope Ed gets a karma smackdown!


avalon420


Jul 2, 2010, 7:48 PM
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Re: [justroberto] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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justroberto wrote:
The cynic in me wants to believe that this is T2+. It's just too descriptive and too stupid.

If it is not, I'm fairly certain that any lawyer would tell you not to put your account into writing on the intardwebs.
This is all so true, especially what the lawyer says.......After he takes a $1000 retainer fee and you never end up gettin sued. Trust me, if you need a lawyer you will know.


amyas


Jul 2, 2010, 9:07 PM
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Re: [reno] Rope ran through the belay device - Need Help! [In reply to]
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reno wrote:
Skyline wrote:
What do you think?

I think if you're in a situation that opens you up to potential legal liability, you should not post about it on a website.

Yeah... admit even partial fault and you're at least partially paying. Representing yourself isn't to bad though if it comes to that, just head to court a couple times beforehand and pay attention to procedure, the rest is just being honest. Unless you want to rip someone off of course.
Hope you both keep climbing together, at least for the soap opera i hope i can continue enjoying.

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