All you sallys that will scream on the internet at me for recomending placeing the bolt on the FA are completely full of shit because you know damn well that you would be shaking like a dog shitting razorblades over that crappy micro cam and totally stoked the moment you had the bolt clipped and it still sounds like it's a good long ways to the top after that so you will be jazzed and satisfyed when you get to the trees.

Well there's a thought. And following from that, if the top's accessible why not just hang a super-duper-mother-of-all-runners from the top such that the end hangs above the crack and below the crux; basically a really long pre-hung draw? Not the prettiest of solutions, but it'll keep you off the deck and doesn't harm the rock in any manner.

RG, as always you make a well reasoned argument. But I am left with a serious question.

In your opinion, is there no place for a hammer on longer serious FA attempts? Does drilling from stances (or hooks), or pounding a pin or two in a substantial route that is otherwise protectable with clean gear not kosher? Does it not satisfy the following criteria?

So back to the pin on Diedre - Certainly the climb could be done without it, but why say that the modern FA party *must* do so? I honestly don't see the problem with putting in an occasional pin or bolt on a multipitch climb that otherwise is well protected with clean removable gear. So far as I can see, placing a pin or bolt in an attempt to get from ground to summit has always been a valid last resort, when no other means of protection are available.

Gabe, absolutely---there's plenty of place for those things on longer more committing climbs. I articulated the purest form of (my understanding of) the trad game because that's where it starts from, rather than "let's do whatever it takes to make a nice comfortable climb for the PG leaders."

That's a sport climbing perspective, not a trad perspective, and if that is your starting point, then you've pretty much given up on trad climbing before you've even begun. Which is fine---just don't pretend it's trad.

But perhaps nowadays trad climbing means little more than sport climbing with gear, so that the minute placing gear becomes a problem, in goes a bolt.

The fact is that the real world of climbing simply doesn't lend itself to hard and fast rules. But I think we ought to have a very solid position, and that the precepts of that position should be bent only after a lot of consideration.

Y'know Gabe, I'm really sorry I got involved in this. I'm part of a generation that has mostly passed from the scene. By and large, I think we got it right. But those days are over in this country, and new climbers with different perspectives are demanding different kinds of experiences.

Rgold, that is a Totally different stance than what you took before. Earlier you suggested that there should be no bolts and no pins...

Come out to Eldo sometime, and see the scene here. In the last decade, new hard lines have been going up on Rincon wall by the locals using head-point tactics. And it's not just those strong dudes on the cutting edge who are willing to put it on the line. Even on more moderate routes, well, let me put it this way - the typical Eldo rack includes a double set of RPs! That's for punters like me!

Somebody else already mentioned it, but I've never considered head pointing to be trad. What's everyone's opinion on that?

Frequently the advice given to people learning trad is to start with climbs that are well below their climbing limit. And/or do climbs they already know. Isn't that pretty close to the functionality of headpointing?

What I've observed is that there are many who claim the scarier routes are well-protected with small gear, but very few have ever fallen on them to back up their claim. Consequently, every season, with the loose and slick choss, a number of serious accidents happen there.

Frequently the advice given to people learning trad is to start with climbs that are well below their climbing limit. And/or do climbs they already know. Isn't that pretty close to the functionality of headpointing?

I don't know if you realize it, but you're actually supporting my point that a fair bit of the climbing here is serious, and there are many routes in which a fall at the wrong place can be disastrous.

I wasn't trying to refute your point that Eldo is serious, in fact, I don't think I've ever gotten on an Eldo 5.12 that's PG (except your mother, but that's a sport route), and you can certainly screw yourself on Bastille Crack, but double set of RP seemed excessive. Of course, T-man will just tell you to shove your Eldo ethics up your ass.

Still, I feel some of the Eldo ethics has to do with the application process of fixed gear (the army of old farts will declare war if it got sanitized). Neighboring Boulder Canyon, however, has Sport Park and bolted China Doll (now have been lead on gear), and new bolts seem to pop up on the Castle Rock crag. Up in RMNP, there is a pin <10 feet from the top of The Wasp (which I hope was not hammered for free climbing).