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talons05
Dec 17, 2002, 10:11 PM
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Besides my large free rack, what do I need to add to go big with clean aid?
A.W.
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dsafanda
Dec 17, 2002, 10:20 PM
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In the Valley?
Two words...
cam hooks
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wonderbread
Dec 17, 2002, 10:42 PM
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I believe the Doc has an extensive list on this site of everything one could possible dream up to drag up a wall. Try searching for that. Also as far as clean aid goes- cam hooks, real hooks, offset nuts, brass offsets, aliens, more aliens, offset aliens, rivet hangers, and a grappling hook purchased from ebay. Have fun.
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philbox
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Dec 17, 2002, 10:54 PM
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Add Lowe Ballnuts and Splitter two cam units. All depends on the size of the cracks you intend to climb. Wanna go huge then get a hold of the valley giants then.
...Phil...
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blindslap
Dec 17, 2002, 11:50 PM
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just out of curiosity, how much to the "valley Giants" go for right now?
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hans
Dec 18, 2002, 12:24 AM
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http://home.pacbell.net/takasper/slcd/vginventory.html
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twrock
Dec 18, 2002, 1:22 AM
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You'd need to define "large clean rack." To some sport climbers that means anything more than ten draws. Seriously, if you get your hands on some big wall topos (Supertopos being simply the best: http://supertopo.com ), you will see from the gear list what you are going to need for the established routes. Most people who haven't gotten into aid climbing don't yet have the multiple, duplicate pieces that wall climbing requires. Some routes require three or more full sets of cams. That's a lot of metal. The stuff mentioned above is all good.
You of course do need all the individual aid gear that is not "pro" as well (aiders, ascenders, daisies, knee pads, Grigri, etc.), and the gear for a hauling system.
You might simply start by getting just the necessary gear for your first clean wall based on that gear list and keep building from there for each subsequent wall. To buy it all at once will kill your back account (unless you are one of those really rich people who can afford to waste money).
Here's that PTPP article: http://www.rockclimbing.com/articles/view.php?ID=53
Edit- But don't think you need all that for the South Face of Washington Column!
[ This Message was edited by: twrock on 2002-12-17 17:26 ]
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flamer
Dec 18, 2002, 1:32 AM
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For stuff in the valley 2 more words...
Cheater Stick!
Is there any trade route in the valley without a ton of fixed stuff?
Just stirring the pot a little please don't get all worked up!
josh
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twrock
Dec 18, 2002, 12:21 PM
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Yeah, there is quite a bit of fixed stuff in the Valley. But from what I remember (bad memory admitted) South Face WC only had one fixed piece, and I'm told that it was completely unnecessary (fixed head under the roof).
So there's at least one.
[ This Message was edited by: twrock on 2002-12-18 04:21 ]
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flamer
Dec 18, 2002, 11:38 PM
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I climbed the South face last spring and there were at least 10 fixed pieces! Guess fixed gear is dynamic! sometimes it's there sometimes it's not!
josh
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twrock
Dec 19, 2002, 1:31 AM
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Whoa, I must be getting old! I really only remember one fixed piece. But then again, Rich did the harder aid pitches. Maybe some of that gear I cleaned wasn't ours!!!! I can just hear the next party: "Man, this was a lot easier when there still was a bunch of fixed gear. I wonder what idiot cleaned it all."
Now, if you are also counting every bolt....
Seriously, yes, fixed gear can be very dynamic. I remember thinking on pitch two of the Prow, "Where's all the fixed gear they were talking about?" I think I got two fixed pins (one busted eye) and two heads. The previous descriptions sure made it sound like a lot more gear than that! Oh well, just "ups" that challenge.
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talons05
Dec 19, 2002, 4:44 AM
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Twrock -
By large free rack, I mean:
3 sets of camming units (Wild Country forged friends, Metolius fat cams, various B.D. and Aliens)
1 set of Wild Country Zero Cams
2 sets of hexes (One wire and one slung)
3 sets of nuts (DMM wallnuts, BD)
2 sets of micro nuts
1 set of C.A.M.P. ball-nuts (I love my size one)
1 set of Trango big-bros
30 draws
40 free ovals
10 free wiregates
various slings (tons and tons)
My question pertains more to the specialty gear that I may have never touched (camhooks, etriers, etc.)
A.W.
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bigwalling
Dec 19, 2002, 6:02 AM
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I don't think 8-10 cam hooks is A3+! I've done pitches that have 4-5 cam hook moves followed by 4-5 heads. That isn't more than A2+. Even that is pushing the grade up in my opinion. Cam hooks are er, most of the time. But good for you, going as clean as possible is really good for the sport.
I'd bring nailing gear as backup. I can't imagine climbing a 2500' wall without a hammer depending on fixed heads.
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mountainmonkey
Dec 19, 2002, 4:26 PM
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talons05
I would add offset nuts, both the brass micros and the aluminum ones. They are hard to find but are very nice for routes that have lots of pinscars (Yose Valley). Cam hooks are essential IMO. Tricams might be worth adding. Offset aliens are supposed to be essential for the valley (but I have never played with those).
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bigwalling
Dec 19, 2002, 10:38 PM
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My ratings that I go by tend to be more new waveish I guess. I just can remember doing one pitch that had 4 cam hook moves off the belay. After that their was 4 fixed heads with a sling over a sloping knob. I finsed that pitch up and thought that it was about A1+. My buddy said it would be rated at least A2+. I think our topo showed A3.
Here is how I think.
A0=bomber pro. No danger
A1=minor danger, no danger of breaking much
A2=Bad falls. Just not as sustained.
A3=Danger! Potential for a busted up body. Sustained.
A4=Death pitch.
A5=Death pitch. No holes
This might be more new wave. I don't know. I think this is how ratings should be though. This is how I rate stuff. So maybe that will explain why I disagred with you. I haven't climbed in Yosemite.
I wrote this fast so it might not make much sense now. I'll try and fix it when I get home.
Edited: I must have been at school when I wrote this crap. I really think ratings are quite stupid. It is just a way to make yourself look like a sissy or look like a badass.
[ This Message was edited by: bigwalling on 2003-01-09 22:04 ]
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twrock
Dec 20, 2002, 1:04 AM
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Talons05, ok, I'm with ya. Yes that is a large free rack. (Do you often climb 600 ft pitches?)
Based on what you said you have, here's my comments. (You might know all this already, but since I don't know that, please don't think I'm talking "down" to you.)
The fat cams and forged friends won't fit well into pin scars. Essential on clean aid routes is narrow cams that'll fit into old pin scars. So it's Aliens, Splitters, TCUS, whatever. Just make sure you have enough to cover the route you want to do. (Especially the small sizes; once the crack gets big, no prob. with cam brand) The Splitter Two-cams look very nice (I don't own them).
People have already mentioned offset nuts. Definitely for Valley routes! (HB being the ones I'm used to.) BD's placed sideways seem to work ok too. I have no experience with DMM. Micro offsets are good too. The ball nuts you have are a nice specialty piece. (I've even got a few old "sliders".)
If your QD's have biners already, that's 110 total biners. Probably plenty, but all those ovals are heavy. Since you have lot's of money, just send those worthless ovals to me and go out and buy a bunch more wire gate biners to replace them. Make sure you have a bunch of self-locking biners for such tasks as anchors, hauling, hanging, whatever.
As has been mentioned, a lot of "clean" Valley routes rely on fixed gear. You can bring some "replacement" gear and/or a cheater stick. But in any case you have to decide how you are going to deal with a busted fixed placement.
Ok, "specialty" gear:
Hooks, all sizes, multiples
Cam hooks, same
Tri-cams (some people will swear the small sizes are essential)
Rivet hangers
Maybe even a beak or two for hand placement(who knows; I'm spending someone elses money here, so the sky's the limit!)
Personal wall gear:
Fat harness
Fat gear sling (double gear sling)
Russian aiders, but if not, Yates wall ladders or even "traditional" aiders)
Metolius adjustable daisies, but if not, standard daisies (Fish's site says his adjustable daisies are available, but I still can't find them)
Kong adjustable fifi, standard fifi or just a keylock biner to hook into the placement with (I just started testing the Kong, and I'm having trouble finding just the right cord for it; my preference until now has been a keylock biner)
Ascenders (Petzl seems to have become the "standard", but I still jug with my old Clog ascenders)
Grigri (for belaying and for ascending, etc.; read the discussions about the better way to ascend and you'll understand)
Knee pads
Wall boots (you can buy real "wall boots" for a couple hundred bucks or you can get a $19 pair of tight "Wall-mart" hiking boots)
Wall gloves (finger tips cut off)
Brain bucket (aka helmet; won't save you from a flying pig, but it might in a whole lot of other situations)
Belay seat for hanging belays
Poop tube (no, the Wallflower™ is still not a viable option in my opinion; maybe try the paddlers dry bag option)
Clothes pin (for the nose when using/emptying the poop tube)
Portaledge (if the route requires it)
Bivy sack
Sleeping bag
Sleeping pad (for sleeping, but can double for padding the pig; possibly a dedicated pad for each purpose will save you some hassle)
Soft synthetic pillow, at least two feet by one foot by six inches thick (think "comfort"; don't know why I've never seen this on anyone elses list)
Headlamp
Haul bags (with all that crap, you'll probably need two; if you go "minimalistic", you can probably do it with one)
Bunches of stuff sacks to organize your haul bag
Hauling system (static haul line, pulleys, "rope grabs", etc.; you've got to read through the threads on hauling to figure out what you need on this one; it's way to complicated for me to put here)
Rain gear (jacket & pants)
Ok, I'm sure I've forgotten a bunch. I should say that wall climbers certainly don't all agree on things like CD player, cooking kits, coffee pots, sun shower, pillows, beer, etc. A lot of what you choose to take is based on you personal goals and comfort level. Using the proper hauling system, there's not a lot that you can't take up with you if you really want to. If you've got a month, you can do an El Cap route one pitch a day, haul four bags, and live in luxury! Or you can cut it down to the bare minimum of gear and fire for the top as fast as possible. If your name is "Hans", you can skip all this crap, take a dozen pieces of pro, and climb the Nose in less than three hours.
Suggestion: read "How To Rock Climb: Big Walls!" by Long and Middendorf. Then come back here and read everything ever posted on the "better way", and you will have a pretty good knowledge base. Then you've got to experiment to find what works best for you. Definitely practice your aiding system (moving up placements), ascending system (jugging), hauling system, and bivy system before you get on the wall. It'll possibly save you from a real nightmare.
Wow, that turned out to be way longer than I anticipated. Again, have a look at PTPP's list; there's nothing he's missing!
Most importantly, have fun!
(Disclaimer--I really don't know what the heck I'm talking about, but I had ya' fooled, didn't I!)
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apollodorus
Dec 20, 2002, 1:53 AM
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Hybrid aliens. Hooks. RPs or other micro nuts. Rivet hangers. Screamers. Extra biners. Extra lockers. Extra slings. Four big cordelettes (about 20 feet each).
You don't need too many extra cams in the fingers through OW sizes, because you can back-clean most A1 and A2 cracks. Plus, most people free that sort of stuff, even on walls.
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talons05
Dec 20, 2002, 4:45 AM
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twrock - thanks for the book! No, I don't frequently climb 600' pitches, but, here in Arkansas, you never know what you will need in places like Red Rock Point (approx. 250 ft.), which like many others has NO GUIDEBOOK! My rack also comes in handy when doing multi-pitch out west, because we can almost make two full racks with it and swing the leads a lot quicker.
A.W.
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passthepitonspete
Jan 10, 2003, 5:39 AM
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Just moving this to the top to remind myself to answer tomorrow. Apologies for ignoring your question, it's just that everyone else was doing a pretty good job of answering it!
I am Dr. Piton,
and I am a great fan of Tom Sawyer
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billcoe_
Jan 24, 2007, 12:34 AM
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Tomorrow didn't come.
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crimpstrength
Jan 24, 2007, 12:52 AM
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and its a crying shame
bring back ptpp
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andypro
Jan 24, 2007, 2:45 AM
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it's only been 4.03846 years. Stop ridin his ass! Whatever happened to pete anyways? I heard rumors and hearsay...
--Andy P
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moose_droppings
Jan 24, 2007, 3:23 AM
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Pete's alive and doing fine, you can talk to him on SuperTaco if you need to.
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billcoe_
Jan 30, 2007, 8:29 PM
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andypro wrote: it's only been 4.03846 years. Stop ridin his ass! Whatever happened to pete anyways? I heard rumors and hearsay... --Andy P
Sorry, I'll back off. Probably sound a little pushy there. 
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