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gmggg
Oct 13, 2010, 4:16 PM
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http://vimeo.com/15728237 And now you know why the PAS is superior to other systems. Please ignore the fact that she is anchored with the rope. Thank you.
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spikeddem
Oct 13, 2010, 4:35 PM
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gmggg wrote: http://vimeo.com/15728237 And now you know why the PAS is superior to other systems. Please ignore the fact that she is anchored with the rope. Thank you. This seems to be a response to people on RC.com that advocate building the anchor itself out of the PAS. Please show me those people. Honestly, I feel like I just don't see people advocating that. What I generally see is people generally advocating it as either just a connection while putting together an anchor (especially if it's going to be made out of cordelette) or for rapping.
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gmggg
Oct 13, 2010, 4:51 PM
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spikeddem wrote: gmggg wrote: http://vimeo.com/15728237 And now you know why the PAS is superior to other systems. Please ignore the fact that she is anchored with the rope. Thank you. This seems to be a response to people on RC.com that advocate building the anchor itself out of the PAS. Please show me those people. Honestly, I feel like I just don't see people advocating that. What I generally see is people generally advocating it as either just a connection while putting together an anchor (especially if it's going to be made out of cordelette) or for rapping. Fixed!
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xtrmecat
Oct 13, 2010, 5:09 PM
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I watched the entire video. I am still perplexed as to what benefit the POS has over gear I already own and carry along. Other than spending my hard earned on stuff I really do not need. I already am tied into the rope, it is right there, seems prudent to use it. Gear is getting slung, so I have a sling or two that are along for the ride also, I already own them, and they are right there. I did notice her anchored in with the rope, just like I do. And the thousands of other climbers I have encountered this year out in many destination crags. Why exactly did she need to change over to the POS? I don't know either, unless it was to earn her keep with the manufacturer. Ahhh, something going on here. I thought perhaps when she got to the part of rapping with an injured client or haul bag, that perhaps was where this device could justify it's existence. Nope, I was wrong again. Why is it we need to "BUY" this thing that is just like all the other things? Ok slightly different than the others things just like it. Oh, and she isn't much of a guide if she cannot clip both bolts with one daisy,(pretty basic skill) which aren't even smart to anchor off with anyway(Why is she anchoring with a daisy? Against every manufacturers advice?). Just a lot of smoke and mirrors here, and a rather long video of simple procedures for something I see no real benefit in. And that statement coming from a gear whore. Burly Bob
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spikeddem
Oct 13, 2010, 6:15 PM
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gmggg wrote: spikeddem wrote: gmggg wrote: http://vimeo.com/15728237 And now you know why the PAS is superior to other systems. Please ignore the fact that she is anchored with the rope. Thank you. This seems to be a response to people on RC.com that advocate building the anchor itself out of the PAS. Please show me those people. Honestly, I feel like I just don't see people advocating that. What I generally see is people generally advocating it as either just a connection while putting together an anchor (especially if it's going to be made out of cordelette) or for rapping. Fixed! Don't do that. If you can't show me how anything but a small minority of posts advocate building the anchor itself out of a PAS, then just say so, delete your post, correct mine, and re-consider posting on RC.com
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spikeddem
Oct 13, 2010, 6:25 PM
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xtrmecat wrote: I watched the entire video. I am still perplexed as to what benefit the POS has over gear I already own and carry along. Other than spending my hard earned on stuff I really do not need. I already am tied into the rope, it is right there, seems prudent to use it. Gear is getting slung, so I have a sling or two that are along for the ride also, I already own them, and they are right there. I did notice her anchored in with the rope, just like I do. And the thousands of other climbers I have encountered this year out in many destination crags. Why exactly did she need to change over to the POS? I don't know either, unless it was to earn her keep with the manufacturer. Ahhh, something going on here. I thought perhaps when she got to the part of rapping with an injured client or haul bag, that perhaps was where this device could justify it's existence. Nope, I was wrong again. Why is it we need to "BUY" this thing that is just like all the other things? Ok slightly different than the others things just like it. Oh, and she isn't much of a guide if she cannot clip both bolts with one daisy,(pretty basic skill) which aren't even smart to anchor off with anyway(Why is she anchoring with a daisy? Against every manufacturers advice?). Just a lot of smoke and mirrors here, and a rather long video of simple procedures for something I see no real benefit in. And that statement coming from a gear whore. Burly Bob You don't need it anymore than you need an SLCD to go climbing. You're more than welcome to climb without buying this. They're just offering the option of an easily adjustable, full strength tether to an anchor. If you don't want it, don't buy it. This is how business and marketing works. You don't need to produce an actually useful product, you just need to convince enough people that it, in their opinion, is. Some people appreciate the convenience of having a more easily adjustable tether than a plain 2' sling. Some don't. I use the rope when I build anchors. I dont, however, when I'm rapping. It is in this case that many people find the usefulness of a PAS.
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gmggg
Oct 13, 2010, 6:28 PM
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spikeddem wrote: gmggg wrote: spikeddem wrote: gmggg wrote: http://vimeo.com/15728237 And now you know why the PAS is superior to other systems. Please ignore the fact that she is anchored with the rope. Thank you. This seems to be a response to people on RC.com that advocate building the anchor itself out of the PAS. Please show me those people. Honestly, I feel like I just don't see people advocating that. What I generally see is people generally advocating it as either just a connection while putting together an anchor (especially if it's going to be made out of cordelette) or for rapping. Fixed! Don't do that. If you can't show me how anything but a small minority of posts advocate building the anchor itself out of a PAS, then just say so, delete your post, correct mine, and re-consider posting on RC.com Well sure, if you want to be a shithead. 1.) I don't see what the claim of building an anchor out of the PAS has to do with it's use in general or facetious content of the video I provided. 2.) The majority of use for the PAS that I've seen advocated on this site is as a tie in (or an anchor) at the top of a single pitch sport climb with two bolts while rethreading. I'll let you do the search for that, those claims are abundant and easy to find. 3.) If you had watched the entire video (it is boring and silly so I don't blame you if you didn't) you would see that the PAS is also demonstrated in use prior to a rap and as a rap extension. Now quit your bitching and appreciate the fact that she is tied in, or anchored in, with her rope and not the PAS.
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gmggg
Oct 13, 2010, 6:31 PM
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spikeddem wrote: I use the rope when I build anchors. I dont, however, when I'm rapping. It is in this case that many people find the usefulness of a PAS. Hmm... usually when rapping I'm done climbing and have some extra slings or quickdraws right at hand that I can easily use to extend a rap. Congratulations on finding an even more worthless use for the PAS.
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spikeddem
Oct 13, 2010, 7:19 PM
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gmggg wrote: spikeddem wrote: gmggg wrote: spikeddem wrote: gmggg wrote: http://vimeo.com/15728237 And now you know why the PAS is superior to other systems. Please ignore the fact that she is anchored with the rope. Thank you. This seems to be a response to people on RC.com that advocate building the anchor itself out of the PAS. Please show me those people. Honestly, I feel like I just don't see people advocating that. What I generally see is people generally advocating it as either just a connection while putting together an anchor (especially if it's going to be made out of cordelette) or for rapping. Fixed! Don't do that. If you can't show me how anything but a small minority of posts advocate building the anchor itself out of a PAS, then just say so, delete your post, correct mine, and re-consider posting on RC.com Well sure, if you want to be a shithead.
In reply to: 1.) I don't see what the claim of building an anchor out of the PAS has to do with it's use in general or facetious content of the video I provided. Read my very first sentence again (without your edits). It is directly related to the last sentence of your OP.
In reply to: 2.) The majority of use for the PAS that I've seen advocated on this site is as a tie in (or an anchor) at the top of a single pitch sport climb with two bolts while rethreading. I'll let you do the search for that, those claims are abundant and easy to find. If you're on a two pitch sport climb then you most likely just have draws or nothing. Whether you bring slings or a PAS, you're carrying specialized gear that isn't otherwise useful.
In reply to: 3.) If you had watched the entire video (it is boring and silly so I don't blame you if you didn't) you would see that the PAS is also demonstrated in use prior to a rap and as a rap extension. I did watch the entire video. I saw that. I never said that they didn't demonstrate the PAS as useful for setting up a rap and extending one.
In reply to: Now quit your bitching and appreciate the fact that she is tied in, or anchored in, with her rope and not the PAS. Here we are, finally back to your last OP sentence. For my response, see my first sentence(s) in this thread.
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gmggg
Oct 13, 2010, 7:48 PM
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spikeddem wrote: gmggg wrote: spikeddem wrote: gmggg wrote: spikeddem wrote: gmggg wrote: http://vimeo.com/15728237 And now you know why the PAS is superior to other systems. Please ignore the fact that she is anchored with the rope. Thank you. This seems to be a response to people on RC.com that advocate building the anchor itself out of the PAS. Please show me those people. Honestly, I feel like I just don't see people advocating that. What I generally see is people generally advocating it as either just a connection while putting together an anchor (especially if it's going to be made out of cordelette) or for rapping. Fixed! Don't do that. If you can't show me how anything but a small minority of posts advocate building the anchor itself out of a PAS, then just say so, delete your post, correct mine, and re-consider posting on RC.com Well sure, if you want to be a shithead. In reply to: 1.) I don't see what the claim of building an anchor out of the PAS has to do with it's use in general or facetious content of the video I provided. Read my very first sentence again (without your edits). It is directly related to the last sentence of your OP. In reply to: 2.) The majority of use for the PAS that I've seen advocated on this site is as a tie in (or an anchor) at the top of a single pitch sport climb with two bolts while rethreading. I'll let you do the search for that, those claims are abundant and easy to find. If you're on a two pitch sport climb then you most likely just have draws or nothing. Whether you bring slings or a PAS, you're carrying specialized gear that isn't otherwise useful. In reply to: 3.) If you had watched the entire video (it is boring and silly so I don't blame you if you didn't) you would see that the PAS is also demonstrated in use prior to a rap and as a rap extension. I did watch the entire video. I saw that. I never said that they didn't demonstrate the PAS as useful for setting up a rap and extending one. In reply to: Now quit your bitching and appreciate the fact that she is tied in, or anchored in, with her rope and not the PAS. Here we are, finally back to your last OP sentence. For my response, see my first sentence(s) in this thread. So what's your problem then?
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bearbreeder
Oct 13, 2010, 8:55 PM
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metollius propaganda ... i dont see anything you cant do with slings and daisies ... if you want something a bit more fancy just buy a chain reactor ...
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MS1
Oct 13, 2010, 9:16 PM
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gmggg wrote: http://vimeo.com/15728237 And now you know why the PAS is superior to other systems. Please ignore the fact that she is anchored with the rope. Thank you. She addressed the strawman alternative of using a daisy chain and a sling or draw as a tether. She didn't offer any reason to prefer the PAS to the rope (for multipitch) or a pair of draws (for cleaning sport anchors).
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livinonasandbar
Oct 13, 2010, 9:25 PM
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Two comments... or questions: 1. Someone mentioned using the PAS for building an achor. Why introduce additional static material into the system? If you're not using the rope by itself, a dynamic cordelette (such as Sterling's) would be preferable, in my mind. 2. Interesting that the guide (at the end of the video) set up her rappel and then let go of the brake side of her rope (with no leg wraps or autoblock, etc.) while she unclipped herself from the anchor. A weird oversight in an instructional video, isn't it?
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spikeddem
Oct 13, 2010, 9:34 PM
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livinonasandbar wrote: 1. Someone mentioned using the PAS for building an achor. Why introduce additional static material into the system? If you're not using the rope by itself, a dynamic cordelette (such as Sterling's) would be preferable, in my mind. **throws hands in air and walks out**
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acorneau
Oct 13, 2010, 9:38 PM
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livinonasandbar wrote: 2. Interesting that the guide (at the end of the video) set up her rappel and then let go of the brake side of her rope (with no leg wraps or autoblock, etc.) while she unclipped herself from the anchor. A weird oversight in an instructional video, isn't it? Watch it again. She already has an autioblock on the rope when she puts the rope in the rap device.
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potreroed
Oct 13, 2010, 9:51 PM
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I love my PAS.
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moose_droppings
Oct 13, 2010, 10:55 PM
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Vimeo sux. Never can get a video to load and run properly there.
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climbingaggie03
Oct 13, 2010, 11:28 PM
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Several times she describes the PAS as "streamlined" maybe we have different understandings of the word streamlined, but the PAS is bulky, and looks like it will catch on everything while stowed on a belay loop.
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climbingaggie03
Oct 13, 2010, 11:38 PM
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spikeddem wrote: If you're on a two pitch sport climb then you most likely just have draws or nothing. Whether you bring slings or a PAS, you're carrying specialized gear that isn't otherwise useful. So I'm not a PAS fan, but I wouldn't describe slings as specialized gear, they're about as versatile as it comes. they may be rarely used on a sport climb, but you still could run into a bolt that you want to have a longer runner on.
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baja_java
Oct 14, 2010, 12:43 AM
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At approx 01:30 into the vid, the Metolius Ambassador advocated that a climber can use just one PAS to anchor as demonstrated. With that set-up, the attachment of the climber to both anchor bolts would still end up relying on the integrity of each one of the lower PAS loops between (and including) the PAS end loop girth hitched onto the harness and the mid-loop that was clipped by one of the biners to one of the anchor bolts. A single-point failure of any one of those lower PAS loops would result in complete detachment and catastrophic failure of the entire PAS anchoring system. Each of the PAS linking loops consists of one single loop, as in each is not consisting of an inner and an outer loop sewn together like the redundant belay loop of a harness. The rope has long been commonly accepted as one piece of climbing equipment that usually needs not be redundant. Is Metolius and its ambassador suggesting that each linking loop on the PAS should now also be considered as "unfailable" like the rope? Has ten bartacks on 16 mm slings of 27% dyneema and 73% nylon become another accepted standard for "unfailability" that would no longer require that particular component of the system to be redundant? I mean, it's great if that's the case. And it would be important and helpful to state that very clearly on the paperwork that comes with the newly purchased product or on the product webpage: http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/...l_anchor_system.html But the PAS description on the Metolius website above only says that the PAS is safer than daisy chains because the latter is designed for body weight applications only, and safer than slings or quickdraws at the anchor without explicitly stating why, and did not give any indication of extra "unfailability" that would exempt any portion of the PAS from the usual redundancy requirement of anchoring. Considering also there exists evidence that the PAS can fail: http://www.supertopo.com/...rsonal-Anchor-System http://www.caves.org/...yardsPartII-2006.pdf with breakage at fall factor of 1.25 (test #29) and fusing of the PAS first and second loops on the test weight side at fall factor of 1.00 (test #28), the suggested use of only one PAS for anchoring might well be quite questionable. Anyway, there's all that if one is into using either the daisy chain (plus sling) or the PAS for anchoring purposes. I happen to not use either and have gotten along fine for many years without either, as many others have, and am still convinced today that whatever silly system that I use is just as safe (or possibly safer based on some daisy and PAS applications out there) and more convenient overall than both. But that's just me.
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Lbrombach
Oct 14, 2010, 3:49 AM
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So I do use a PAS for anchoring single pitch sport climbs to set up for a rap. I prefer it over a daisy because, well...why the hell wouldn't I? I don't aid so a daisy offers no benefit to me over the more resilient PAS. I prefer it over using fixed slings because of easy adjustability. I prefer it over quickdraws for the same reason. I have not had any trouble with it getting tangled. I used it at the Red last weekend as part of an anchor so I could hang out at the top and take pictures of my friends climbing the route below and get something other than ass-shots. Adjustability was nice for this too. I don't know how to use the rope to anchor to set up for a rap down. The loops are rated for 18 freakin Kilonewtons - the same or even more than some belay loops. That said, I acknowledge that it is a static piece of gear, and I always questioned the wisdom of calling it a complete, redundant anchor all by itself. Hooked up as instructed, should you manage to yank a loose bolt out of the wall and the PAS hold up, it seems that you are violating "no extension" and falling hard on the remaining bolt which may be a piece of shit as well. I'll usually use hook it up as instructed, but back up the unweighted end with a draw that I weight.
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cruxstacean
Oct 14, 2010, 4:08 AM
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baja_java wrote: At approx 01:30 into the vid, the Metolius Ambassador advocated that a climber can use just one PAS to anchor as demonstrated. With that set-up, the attachment of the climber to both anchor bolts would still end up relying on the integrity of each one of the lower PAS loops between (and including) the PAS end loop girth hitched onto the harness and the mid-loop that was clipped by one of the biners to one of the anchor bolts. A single-point failure of any one of those lower PAS loops would result in complete detachment and catastrophic failure of the entire PAS anchoring system. Each of the PAS linking loops consists of one single loop, as in each is not consisting of an inner and an outer loop sewn together like the redundant belay loop of a harness. The rope has long been commonly accepted as one piece of climbing equipment that usually needs not be redundant. Is Metolius and its ambassador suggesting that each linking loop on the PAS should now also be considered as "unfailable" like the rope? Has ten bartacks on 16 mm slings of 27% dyneema and 73% nylon become another accepted standard for "unfailability" that would no longer require that particular component of the system to be redundant? I mean, it's great if that's the case. And it would be important and helpful to state that very clearly on the paperwork that comes with the newly purchased product or on the product webpage: http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/...l_anchor_system.html But the PAS description on the Metolius website above only says that the PAS is safer than daisy chains because the latter is designed for body weight applications only, and safer than slings or quickdraws at the anchor without explicitly stating why, and did not give any indication of extra "unfailability" that would exempt any portion of the PAS from the usual redundancy requirement of anchoring. Considering also there exists evidence that the PAS can fail: http://www.supertopo.com/...rsonal-Anchor-System http://www.caves.org/...yardsPartII-2006.pdf with breakage at fall factor of 1.25 (test #29) and fusing of the PAS first and second loops on the test weight side at fall factor of 1.00 (test #28), the suggested use of only one PAS for anchoring might well be quite questionable. Anyway, there's all that if one is into using either the daisy chain (plus sling) or the PAS for anchoring purposes. I happen to not use either and have gotten along fine for many years without either, as many others have, and am still convinced today that whatever silly system that I use is just as safe (or possibly safer based on some daisy and PAS applications out there) and more convenient overall than both. But that's just me. I agree. Locking biners, belay device, belay loop and rope we trust without redundancy. But the PAS or a single sling? I don't think they should be used unbackedup, especially since there are more bombproof alternatives.
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spikeddem
Oct 14, 2010, 4:10 AM
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climbingaggie03 wrote: spikeddem wrote: If you're on a two pitch sport climb then you most likely just have draws or nothing. Whether you bring slings or a PAS, you're carrying specialized gear that isn't otherwise useful. So I'm not a PAS fan, but I wouldn't describe slings as specialized gear, they're about as versatile as it comes. they may be rarely used on a sport climb, but you still could run into a bolt that you want to have a longer runner on. I suppose you're right here. I should probably have just dropped out "specialized" from that sentence. It would have communicated my point better.
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marc801
Oct 14, 2010, 5:18 AM
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The PAS sucks and is pointless. Why do we keep having these never-ending discussions about it? Relegate it to the scrap heap of climbing and be done with it already!
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gmggg
Oct 14, 2010, 1:28 PM
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livinonasandbar wrote: Two comments... or questions: 1. Someone mentioned using the PAS for building an achor. Why introduce additional static material into the system? If you're not using the rope by itself, a dynamic cordelette (such as Sterling's) would be preferable, in my mind. God damn people. It's a two bolt station. No one is talking about building an equalized gear anchor with a PAS. Someone may wish tie in to such an anchor with the PAS but no one is talking about building an anchor with the PAS. I think the confusion here is that there is a very very minor difference between building an anchor at a two bolt station and tying in at a two bolt station.
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