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USnavy
Dec 30, 2010, 12:43 PM
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I have heard some say its more difficult to haul with a dynamic rope versus a static one. I have only used a dynamic rope to haul with, but I was considering getting some 9mm static if it would make things easier. Opinions?
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jon06
Dec 30, 2010, 3:29 PM
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If you are used to hauling with the dynamic line on anything less than overhanging, than be prepared to be amazed with the static line.
The difference will be night and day.
The static isn't as versatile (ie. you cant lead with it if your lead line gets chopped), and if the pig falls onto that static rope, say good by to your anchors.
Also, I have had problems with the cam on the mini traxion bitting on the rope when it needs to. This especially happened with a dynamic haul rope because the rope will compress over the small pulley when pulling up heavy loads (it was at least a 10.2 mm rope). With a 9 mil rope you might have this problem pretty bad with a heavy load and the mini taxion.
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USnavy
Dec 31, 2010, 4:10 AM
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jon06 wrote: If you are used to hauling with the dynamic line on anything less than overhanging, than be prepared to be amazed with the static line. The difference will be night and day. The static isn't as versatile (ie. you cant lead with it if your lead line gets chopped), and if the pig falls onto that static rope, say good by to your anchors. Also, I have had problems with the cam on the mini traxion bitting on the rope when it needs to. This especially happened with a dynamic haul rope because the rope will compress over the small pulley when pulling up heavy loads (it was at least a 10.2 mm rope). With a 9 mil rope you might have this problem pretty bad with a heavy load and the mini taxion.
How about the Pro-Traxon? Any issues with that? How about the ascenders, have any issues jugging on the 9mm line?
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charlie.elverson
Dec 31, 2010, 5:36 AM
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I've jugged my 8 mil static without trouble.
edit: The jugging is super easy because the rope is skinnier.
(This post was edited by charlie.elverson on Dec 31, 2010, 5:42 AM)
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majid_sabet
Dec 31, 2010, 6:28 AM
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USnavy wrote: I have heard some say its more difficult to haul with a dynamic rope versus a static one. I have only used a dynamic rope to haul with, but I was considering getting some 9mm static if it would make things easier. Opinions?
Dynamic rope stretches over 30% every time you reset your hauling so it is very inefficient to use any dynamic rope for hauling or jugging.
8-9 mm static rope is the standard wall hauling rope but jugging on a pro-trax is very dangerous and one climber has died on Zion and two almost fell on El Cap while jugging with pro-trax fixed on top.
(This post was edited by majid_sabet on Dec 31, 2010, 6:28 AM)
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socalclimber
Dec 31, 2010, 1:10 PM
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Jugging any line that is fixed to the anchors and has a "haul" device still attached is a really bad idea. Jugging any line that is already loaded with a haul bag hanging from it is a really bad idea. In other words, don't jug on a haul line where the bag is free and fully loading the haul line.
Hauling with dynamics SUCKS. Use a static. Depending on how much hauling and how much weight you have should be considered BEFORE you leave the ground. Thinner cords like 8 or 9 mil are all fine and dandy since they are much lighter, but they are prone to core shots.
You might want to consider a thicker cord in the beginning like 9.8 or so. In a lot of causes hauling bags means that the bag will not be in line with the route. They can easily run up and over sharp or abrasive edges you can't see. Nothing sucks more than getting 4 or 5 pitches up only to discover your haul line has a core shot.
The ProTraxion's are decent, but do have their issues if loaded improperly. In my opinion, the Mini is worthless for hauling heavy loads due to the small pulley size. From all accounts I have heard, the Kong Block Roll is the best and most durable haul device out there. The only complaint I have heard is that they are a bit on the heavy side.
Also, consider a Petzl Swivel for the haul bag attachment. They keep the haul line from getting horribly twisted which does happen. There a tad pricey, but are worth it.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Dec 31, 2010, 1:15 PM)
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xtrmecat
Dec 31, 2010, 3:12 PM
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There is slightly more work involved hauling a pitch on a dynamic, and it is due to the extra stretch.
If you are hauling, do not worry about the haul line weight. you are aiding, not doing a speed ascent on a mega sport route. Right tools for the job. Wall ropes are beefy, and not smaller than 10 mm usually. Mine is 11 mm or slightly larger, and after many roofs and abrasive hauls, is only showing slight wear. Any skinnier will cause problems, see the above post.
Just so it is clear to all, static ropes do stretch, not enough to lead on them, so the crap that the anchor is gone is usually stated by those that don't understand their gear, systems, or what they are getting into. This may be why the threat of failure of the anchor is there, not a static shock to it.
Also, the trax does and will always have issues that can and have killed, giving the pigs the chop. It is not a good choice for a first hauler. Larger pulley diameter is what you are looking for, along with a rope gripping capability that can be allowed some movement when used in the system. This can be done with the protrax, with some instruction, but also may be done with many other haulers much safer.
Burly Bob
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socalclimber
Dec 31, 2010, 5:16 PM
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"There is slightly more work involved hauling a pitch on a dynamic, and it is due to the extra stretch. "
That's putting it mildly....
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sherpa79
Dec 31, 2010, 8:55 PM
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socalclimber wrote: Jugging any line that is fixed to the anchors and has a "haul" device still attached is a really bad idea. Jugging any line that is already loaded with a haul bag hanging from it is a really bad idea. In other words, don't jug on a haul line where the bag is free and fully loading the haul line.
Depends on the scenario I think. I don't think I would jug the line with it installed into a "haul device", but I've tandem jugged lines achored with knots plenty of times. A person doesn't usually weigh less than a haul bag. Also mostly on free hanging pitches, never on pitches where there was a lot of rub points on the rope.
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wallrat
Jan 3, 2011, 7:55 AM
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I've noticed that when soloing, if the pig gets stuck under a roof or some flake (like ten times a day), with a dynamic rope you can crank the haulline super tight and when you rap down to free the bag it'll lift up past the obstruction. Plus the ability to use the haul line as a second lead rope. That makes it my preference. I didn't like statics.
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USnavy
Jan 3, 2011, 12:04 PM
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socalclimber wrote: Jugging any line that is fixed to the anchors and has a "haul" device still attached is a really bad idea. Jugging any line that is already loaded with a haul bag hanging from it is a really bad idea. In other words, don't jug on a haul line where the bag is free and fully loading the haul line.
Than what is your preferred method for space hauling? I learned that you jug on the haul line but back up the haul device with a locking quickdraw and always remain tied into the dynamic lead rope so if the whole haul system goes to hell and fails, you are still tied into the dynamic line. I also learned not to tie the haul rope into anything, so if the haul device fails and the bags come crashing down, they hit the ground versus take a 100 footer onto your anchor with a static rope. Whats your opinion?
(This post was edited by USnavy on Jan 3, 2011, 12:06 PM)
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socalclimber
Jan 3, 2011, 12:35 PM
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USnavy wrote: socalclimber wrote: Jugging any line that is fixed to the anchors and has a "haul" device still attached is a really bad idea. Jugging any line that is already loaded with a haul bag hanging from it is a really bad idea. In other words, don't jug on a haul line where the bag is free and fully loading the haul line. Than what is your preferred method for space hauling? I learned that you jug on the haul line but back up the haul device with a locking quickdraw and always remain tied into the dynamic lead rope so if the whole haul system goes to hell and fails, you are still tied into the dynamic line. I also learned not to tie the haul rope into anything, so if the haul device fails and the bags come crashing down, they hit the ground versus take a 100 footer onto your anchor with a static rope. Whats your opinion?
Well, here's the way I do it.
Somebody leads a pitch. Gets to the belay station, sets up the "team" anchor and yells off belay. Next the leader begins to assemble the haul system. Meanwhile the second is cleaning things up on their end and preparing to clean the pitch. One the leader has the haul system ready, he yells "ready to haul". The bag(s) get released from the anchor and the leader than starts hauling. Meanwhile the second is taking apart the anchor and begins jugging and cleaning the pitch on the lead line.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
As far as space hauling, I have never had enough baggage to require that. I do have a couple of friends who have done some significant FA's in Baffin Island and the Karakorum. I can ask them how they setup their systems. The one thing I do know about space hauling is that your are always tied into the belay so that if things run a foul, they at least don't go to the ground.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Jan 3, 2011, 12:53 PM)
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USnavy
Jan 3, 2011, 1:00 PM
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socalclimber wrote: USnavy wrote: socalclimber wrote: Jugging any line that is fixed to the anchors and has a "haul" device still attached is a really bad idea. Jugging any line that is already loaded with a haul bag hanging from it is a really bad idea. In other words, don't jug on a haul line where the bag is free and fully loading the haul line. Than what is your preferred method for space hauling? I learned that you jug on the haul line but back up the haul device with a locking quickdraw and always remain tied into the dynamic lead rope so if the whole haul system goes to hell and fails, you are still tied into the dynamic line. I also learned not to tie the haul rope into anything, so if the haul device fails and the bags come crashing down, they hit the ground versus take a 100 footer onto your anchor with a static rope. Whats your opinion? Well, here's the way I do it. Somebody leads a pitch. Gets to the belay station, sets up the "team" anchor and yells off belay. Next the leader begins to assemble the haul system. Meanwhile the second is cleaning things up on their end and preparing to clean the pitch. One the leader has the haul system ready, he yells "ready to haul". The bag(s) get released from the anchor and the leader than starts hauling. Meanwhile the second is taking apart the anchor and begins jugging and cleaning the pitch on the lead line. Lather, rinse, repeat. As far as space hauling, I have never had enough baggage to require that. I do have a couple of friends who have done some significant FA's in Baffin Island and the Karakorum. I can ask them how they setup their systems. The one thing I do know about space hauling is that your are always tied into the belay so that if things run a foul, they at least don't go to the ground.
Okay, yea the first paragraph you wrote is pretty standard wall following technique. I was mainly just inquiring about space hauling, I wish I could body haul a grade VI pack up El Cap, that would be nice. How the hell do you body haul up El Cap? You must be hauling ass and doing everything as grade V if your not space hauling.
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socalclimber
Jan 3, 2011, 1:12 PM
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I know a lot of people just set up a 3 to 1 hauling system.
A really good friend of mine was a full blown wall ape back in the 80's and once did 4 grade VI El Cap routes in just under 28 days in response to a painful breakup with a girlfriend. He would lead a pitch, rap to the anchor below, put the haul bag on his back, and jug and clean the pitch wearing his haul bag. He did all this wearing just his sandals.
I guess my point is that space hauling and jugging a loaded haul line are two different things. I should also qualify that when you are space hauling you are not attached to the "load" side of the haul device. My whole point was don't jug loaded haul lines. In other words, stay off of the bag end of the system.
Don't roll your eyes, somebody recently died doing just that in Zion.
(This post was edited by socalclimber on Jan 3, 2011, 1:18 PM)
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coastal_climber
Jan 3, 2011, 4:34 PM
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No static rope is without a % of stretch. That being said, its far more efficient to haul with a static vs. dynamic.
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xtrmecat
Jan 3, 2011, 6:02 PM
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What coastal_climber wrote. Probably the most misunderstood thing in hauling.
That and I am slightly skeptical of wallrats version of solo hauling. He said
"I've noticed that when soloing, if the pig gets stuck under a roof or some flake (like ten times a day), with a dynamic rope you can crank the haulline super tight and when you rap down to free the bag it'll lift up past the obstruction. Plus the ability to use the haul line as a second lead rope. That makes it my preference. I didn't like statics. "
It has been my experience to never pull the line taught when the piggy is stuck, rather try to leave a little leeway to free the pig from the offending obstruction. Of course, some can be foreseen, and some not. Every time I tried to leave the line under tension it has screwed me, not helped, and a second trip up and down were needed to free the bag.
I try to free the pig with some wrangling and sideways pulling from above, and then lower slightly and try again, sometimes pulling slightly one way or the other. Usually this works, but I have needed to go down and free her. When I do this, I go down, find the cause of the hangup, and far end haul above the problem, and jug up and finish, but if I anticipate another issue, like more flake or crack, continue until above the issue. I never want to go down a second let alone the third time for the same problem. I have had to make a third trip in my early solo history, not fun, especially when I should have been getting comfy and eating some dinner, instead of taking an ass beating from an inanimate object, in the dark. Lesson not to be forgotten, "But they are just itty bitty little flakes, how the hell can they be a problem?"
Burly Bob
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charlie.elverson
Jan 3, 2011, 6:02 PM
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In reply to: How the hell do you body haul up El Cap? You must be hauling ass and doing everything as grade V if your not space hauling.
If you put your feet up at the anchor and attach a jug to the load end of the haul line, you can get a bit of momentum going. Push hard with your legs and yard on the jug. Remember to tie yourself in with a lot of slack so you can keep the bags rolling once you start them moving.
If you're like me though and would rather work a little less hard, the 2:1 is great (Pass the Pitons Pete has a great diagram of it somewhere around her or ST). it only takes a second to setup and you can make some serious progress while the second cleans. Once your second is almost at the anchor or at the anchor, take the 2:1 off the haul line and switch to space hauling.
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