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enigma
Feb 26, 2011, 2:01 PM
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While this seems like it wouldn't be an issue it usually comes up very often.
Multi-pitch trad routes but even single pitches, sport climbs
The leader starts leading and at a certain point, often due to wind or proximity you can't hear one another.
Thereby you can't hear belay on, so you wait, or pull on the rope and start climbing. Then you realize theres alot of slack. So you wonder I'm on belay or not. Neither of us hear each other.
I've seen some accidents, due to this where a belayer thought he heard slack when he was saying take and he ended up with a broken back. The belayer was a 5.12 climber ,
I've witnessed some of this on multi pitches where you can't hear one another climber was still leading off route and his belayer took him off belay. ( he said I'm off route, and the belayer thought he said off belay while he was still climbing.) He had a pretty bad head injury due to that mistake.
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I have seen some climbers especially in squamish who use walkie talkies. Especially helpful in 10 + pitches where you climb two pitches at once if you have a long enough rope.
So what's the protocol that works when you can't hear one-another due to the wind or the distance apart to protect both of you .
Obviously good communication is crucial before starting, but once you are climbing and you can't hear, each other , perplexing and dangerous.
So what the best techniques any accepted non -vocal language so your partner will understand. Whether its the leader or the second.
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Gmburns2000
Feb 26, 2011, 2:19 PM
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rope pulls.
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billl7
Feb 26, 2011, 2:38 PM
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enigma wrote: So what the best techniques any accepted non -vocal language so your partner will understand. Whether its the leader or the second.
Leader: "Don't take me off belay unless you very clearly hear me ask for it. Stay on belay even if there's a pause in rope movement as though I'm building an anchor. And keep me on belay even if, after the pause, you steadily have to pay out rope as though I'm pulling up slack. Just keep me on belay until all the rope has been taken up."
Second: "When you get to the top of the pitch and anchor in, don't pull up the remaining rope unless you will afterwards be able to put me on belay in less than half a minute (i.e., only need to thread your already "staged" belay device). Once the remaining rope is up, I will wait at least half minute and then I will tear down the anchor and start climbing."
Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on Feb 26, 2011, 2:39 PM)
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billl7
Feb 26, 2011, 2:55 PM
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And for single-pitch, if the belayer isn't going to second like on multi-pitch ...
Pre-climb, leader says same thing as for multi-pitch. During the climb and when / if / whether or not all remaining rope is taken up, belayer simply keeps the rope secured (e.g., stays locked off, tied in w/ no slack, has knot in rope keeping rope from going through belay device w/ no slack, etc.) and waits. When comms are thwarted, leader always raps from the single-pitch anchor.
Bill L
(This post was edited by billl7 on Feb 26, 2011, 3:17 PM)
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kachoong
Feb 26, 2011, 3:03 PM
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enigma wrote: While this seems like it wouldn't be an issue it usually comes up very often.
And yet you decide to start another thread about it?
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dan2see
Feb 26, 2011, 3:29 PM
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billl7 wrote: enigma wrote: So what the best techniques any accepted non -vocal language so your partner will understand. Whether its the leader or the second. For multi-pitch, before starting the route ... Leader: "Don't take me off belay unless you very clearly hear me ask for it. Stay on belay even if there's a pause in rope movement as though I'm building an anchor. And keep me on belay even if, after the pause, you steadily have to pay out rope as though I'm pulling up slack. Just keep me on belay until all the rope has been taken up." Second: "When you get to the top of the pitch and anchor in, don't pull up the remaining rope unless you will afterwards be able to put me on belay in less than half a minute (i.e., only need to thread your already "staged" belay device). Once the remaining rope is up, I will wait at least half minute and then I will tear down the anchor and start climbing." Bill L
That's pretty much what I do.
I often hear guys tell each other, "three tugs means .... ??" and I'll nod wisely. But when I'm up there, I can't tell how hard to tug the rope: Anyway in the Rockies, rope friction is often so great, when the leader tugs, all he accomplishes is to change the tension on his own end of rope.
And on the belay, I can't tell if it's a tug or a wiggle. This is especially difficult in the Rockies, on easier routes (my specialty) where you're always out of site of each other. So I watch how the rope feeds, and I pay attention to the rhythm.
I mean, if you ask me how do I know my leader is safe at the anchor, I answer "Oh, it just feels right. So I take him off belay, tear down the anchor, and start climbing". I'm sure Majid would have a fit!
At the anchor, I'm always connected to something.
I don't feel confident about this. But it seems to work just as well as radio.
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notapplicable
Feb 26, 2011, 5:07 PM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: rope pulls.
When I'm climbing with new folks, I try to throw the 3 tugs at the end of the usual routine to be extra careful but with regular partners I don't bother. I personally don't find rope tugs to be consistently clear and obvious enough to be relied on alone.
I pretty much use billl7's system with regular partners.
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rgold
Feb 26, 2011, 5:16 PM
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I've seen and heard people screaming so loudly into their dysfunctional radios that you could hear them the next crag, not to mention the next pitch.
The three-tug method doesn't work when there is a bit of friction in the system.
Having the belayer keep the leader on belay until all the rope is up slows things down, sometimes a lot.
Here's what I and most of my partners do. Of course, I discuss this with any new partners so they know how to interpret what is happening.
(1) After anchoring and getting in position to belay, I pull up five or six armloads of slack as hard and fast as I possibly can. This is a royal pain for the belayer, who has to fight, unsuccessfully, to keep up. There is no question that I have their attention at that point.
(2) Next, I let the slack pulled up back down again. This makes it clear that (a) I can be taken off belay and (b) I am not yet belaying them. I wait for fifteen or twenty seconds so that the belayer can get their device off the rope, and hand over hand up all the slack. Again, when the rope comes tight, I immediately let down a few feet to make it clear I am not yet on belay.
(3) I put the rope into the belay device and take up the slack I let down, which is the signal for the second to climb.
Although it is possible to invent scenarios in which this might be problematic, I've never had any issues with it in many years of practice.
I might add that climbers really use too many damn signals, many of which can be confused. I use only two---even when it is possible to hear. (1) "Off belay" (2 syllables) and, (2) when I'm all set up for belaying, "climb" (1 syllable.) If the second wants to shout "climbing" when they start up, fine, but once I've said "climb" they are on belay and I am attending to the rope.
Of course in populated climbing areas, using any verbal signals without appending the name of the person the signals are addressed to can lead to some dangerous misunderstandings.
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Gmburns2000
Feb 26, 2011, 5:16 PM
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notapplicable wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: rope pulls. When I'm climbing with new folks, I try to throw the 3 tugs at the end of the usual routine to be extra careful but with regular partners I don't bother. I personally don't find rope tugs to be consistently clear and obvious enough to be relied on alone. I pretty much use billl7's system with regular partners.
I find them very useful and clear. My partners and I use 3 pulls for off and 2 for on (because of the number of letters in each word). They are obvious, long, big pulls that can't be mistaken for those quick pulls one does when sketched and trying to get that tiny extra bit of slack to clip the next piece.
Of course, with new partners, we go over this stuff before leaving the ground.
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billl7
Feb 26, 2011, 7:41 PM
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rgold wrote: Having the belayer keep the leader on belay until all the rope is up slows things down, sometimes a lot.
I'll readily admit that pulling up the rope while knowing that your partner is still belaying takes time - sometimes frustratingly so. I am curious about your method ...
If I understand, you went on to indicate just two verbals when at opposite ends of a pitch: "Off belay" and "Climb". Do you mean you use rope signals all the time when at opposite ends of a pitch, even when verbals are working? Like this ...
a) leader anchors in;
b) leader yells "Off belay" (and waits a bit);
c) leader tries to quickly pull up five armloads of rope;
... if the rope comes easy in 'c' just keep pulling until all the rope is up then ...
w) lower a few feet of rope;
x) thread the belay device;
y) take back the few feet of slack;
z) yell "Climb".
Bill L
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kachoong
Feb 26, 2011, 8:19 PM
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billl7 wrote: rgold wrote: Having the belayer keep the leader on belay until all the rope is up slows things down, sometimes a lot. I'll readily admit that pulling up the rope while knowing that your partner is still belaying takes time - sometimes frustratingly so. I am curious about your method ... If I understand, you went on to indicate just two verbals when at opposite ends of a pitch: "Off belay" and "Climb". Do you mean you use rope signals all the time when at opposite ends of a pitch, even when verbals are working? Like this ... a) leader anchors in; b) leader yells "Off belay" (and waits a bit); c) leader tries to quickly pull up five armloads of rope; ... if the rope comes easy in 'c' just keep pulling until all the rope is up then ... w) lower a few feet of rope; x) thread the belay device; y) take back the few feet of slack; z) yell "Climb". Bill L
From what I understand, he's pulling in a very quick five armloads of slack so the belayer knows he must be there and on anchor (since he couldn't be climbing that quickly) and then releasing that which he pulled up. If there was a long pause in the rope not moving followed by a heap of rope being pulled you could assume the climber had stayed in place to build the anchor.
At least that's what I make of his method.
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billl7
Feb 26, 2011, 8:36 PM
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kachoong wrote: From what I understand, he's pulling in a very quick five armloads of slack so the belayer knows he must be there and on anchor (since he couldn't be climbing that quickly) and then releasing that which he pulled up. If there was a long pause in the rope not moving followed by a heap of rope being pulled you could assume the climber had stayed in place to build the anchor.
I don't really mean to suggest those rope signals are used every time in the strictest sense of the words "every time". Just that the switch from one to the other might be seamless, perhaps even natural, and without the delay of straining to hear a response from the belayer that never comes.
What I mean by "seamless" is the leader yells "Off Belay" and waits for the belayer to get the rope out of the device. Then the leader starts pulling up the rope, meets resistance and suspects the belay is still on. The leader then quickly yards up 5 arm loads as fast as practical and then lets it out, etc..
Bill L
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Vegasclimber10
Feb 26, 2011, 9:46 PM
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It depends on the situation and the level of my partner, and if we have climbed together before.
I honestly try to avoid situations where I can't communcate verbally, but that's just me.
If verbal communication is impossible, I use walkie talkies and rope pulls as plan B.
Talking things over with your partner before hand and sticking to an agreed method is the best bet.
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rgold
Feb 26, 2011, 10:39 PM
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billl7 wrote: I am curious about your method ... If I understand, you went on to indicate just two verbals when at opposite ends of a pitch: "Off belay" and "Climb". Do you mean you use rope signals all the time when at opposite ends of a pitch, even when verbals are working? Like this ... a) leader anchors in; b) leader yells "Off belay" (and waits a bit); c) leader tries to quickly pull up five armloads of rope; ... if the rope comes easy in 'c' just keep pulling until all the rope is up then ... w) lower a few feet of rope; x) thread the belay device; y) take back the few feet of slack; z) yell "Climb". Bill L
It's almost what I do. If the leader shouts "off belay" and gets a "belay off" response from the second, then no need to pull up a bunch of rope against the belayer's belay. With the belayer known to be off belay, the leader pulls up the rope hand over hand, lets some back down when no more can be taken in, threads the device, takes the slack back in, and shouts "climb."
If the leader doesn't get a "belay off" response after shouting "off belay," then incommunicado protocol described earlier is invoked.
Make sure to have everything ready for belaying (belay gloves on if you are using them, device clipped and ready to go) before starting these protocols.
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bearbreeder
Feb 26, 2011, 10:43 PM
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one thing to add is to say the other persons name as well
if there are parties above, below you, or on other lines on the same rock ... you can easily mistake one call for the other ...
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sp115
Feb 26, 2011, 10:46 PM
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I'll apologize ahead of time for this, but there is something undignified about interrupting the aesthetics of a beautiful climb by screaming at the top of your lungs at the end of each pitch. So I teach rope commands to every second I climb with and actually use them on most climbs.
I use two signals just like RGold: The leader uses three long hard tugs to signal he is off belay, and ready for the second to come up. The belayer then gives two short hard tugs and waits for the leader to repeat the three long hard tugs.
When I'm explaining the logic to a new second I tell them to think about how the rope is paid out during the climb and what they will be wondering when I go out of sight: "is it safe for me to climb?"
Three tugs corresponds to "yes".
With a new second this gets practiced on shorter pitch climbs where we don't lose sight of each other and are still in voice contact. That makes it easy to work any nervous confusion they might have.
There are scenarios where this could be problematic - for instance if I'm out of sight and hearing range and the rope gets stuck. The second then ultimately has two options: stay put with the leader on belay or start climbing and tying in short every few feet. This is an atypical situation and the second option is really only for an experienced second.
(This post was edited by sp115 on Feb 27, 2011, 1:42 PM)
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sp115
Feb 26, 2011, 10:51 PM
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bearbreeder wrote: one thing to add is to say the other persons name as well if there are parties above, below you, or on other lines on the same rock ... you can easily mistake one call for the other ...
Some days at the Gunks I'd swear ever guy on the cliff is named Steve and every girl is named Jess or Jen. Makes me wish my parents named me Milton.
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kachoong
Feb 26, 2011, 10:57 PM
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sp115 wrote: bearbreeder wrote: one thing to add is to say the other persons name as well if there are parties above, below you, or on other lines on the same rock ... you can easily mistake one call for the other ... Some days at the Gunks I'd swear ever guy on the cliff is named Steve and every girl is named Jess or Jen. Makes me wish my parents named me Milton.
No kidding.. Imagine if your name was Lakshminarayana...
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livinonasandbar
Feb 26, 2011, 11:36 PM
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sp115 wrote: I use two signals just like RGold: The leader uses three long hard tugs to signal he is off belay, and ready for the second to come up. The belayer then gives two short hard tugs and waits for the leader to repeat the three long hard tugs.
Not sure I'd ever advise the belayer to give any tugs on the rope. Not a comfortable feeling if the leader isn't yet tied in...
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bearbreeder
Feb 26, 2011, 11:49 PM
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sp115 wrote: Some days at the Gunks I'd swear ever guy on the cliff is named Steve and every girl is named Jess or Jen. Makes me wish my parents named me Milton.
"hey jess ... tension please ... yeah you the one who was great in the bivy sack last night ... oh what? ... that jess next to you is saying i slept with her too ... she liessss .... i only luuuv uuuuuu .... noooooooo ... dont take me off belay im still climbing !!! .... arrrrrgggggg ..... SPLAT"
yeah i can see how thatll be a problem
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billl7
Feb 26, 2011, 11:54 PM
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Thanks for the clarifying how the transition from verbal to non-verbal might go, Richard.
The idea of using "artificial" rope movement as the signal instead of tugs is new to me. Will give it some more consideration.
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cacalderon
Feb 27, 2011, 2:11 AM
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shell out the $$$ and get two way radios!
I use them a lot on multi pitch climbing and it helps a lot!!
(This post was edited by cacalderon on Feb 27, 2011, 2:13 AM)
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112
Feb 27, 2011, 5:19 AM
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Try to stay in visual contact, if possible: wave (I got that from Joseph).
If I can't see or hear, I prefer to belay the entire rope length (tugs mid-rope seem to get dampened by rope drag and the belay). 3 tugs (long and slow) from leader means your turn, possibly with simul-climbing. You can tell if your simul-climbing by the lack of slack. I give slack for 30 seconds when the leader is properly anchored. No return communication (belayer doesn't tug). This is slower, but never confusing.
(This post was edited by 112 on Feb 27, 2011, 5:21 AM)
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notapplicable
Feb 27, 2011, 5:38 AM
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Gmburns2000 wrote: notapplicable wrote: Gmburns2000 wrote: rope pulls. When I'm climbing with new folks, I try to throw the 3 tugs at the end of the usual routine to be extra careful but with regular partners I don't bother. I personally don't find rope tugs to be consistently clear and obvious enough to be relied on alone. I pretty much use billl7's system with regular partners. I find them very useful and clear. My partners and I use 3 pulls for off and 2 for on (because of the number of letters in each word). They are obvious, long, big pulls that can't be mistaken for those quick pulls one does when sketched and trying to get that tiny extra bit of slack to clip the next piece. Of course, with new partners, we go over this stuff before leaving the ground.
I feel like even a little rope drag can make rope tugs pretty ambiguous. Most of the people I climb with feel the same way but if it works for you, rock on.
I bought walkie talkies back when I started doing multi pitch and used them a few times, now they just collect dust on the shelf. It's not so much that they don't work, as they are just one more thing hanging from my harness that doesn't REALLY need to be there. Kind of like back up belay devices, dedicated prusiks, PAS's, etc...
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notapplicable
Feb 27, 2011, 5:41 AM
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rgold wrote: Here's what I and most of my partners do. Of course, I discuss this with any new partners so they know how to interpret what is happening. (1) After anchoring and getting in position to belay, I pull up five or six armloads of slack as hard and fast as I possibly can. This is a royal pain for the belayer, who has to fight, unsuccessfully, to keep up. There is no question that I have their attention at that point. (2) Next, I let the slack pulled up back down again. This makes it clear that (a) I can be taken off belay and (b) I am not yet belaying them. I wait for fifteen or twenty seconds so that the belayer can get their device off the rope, and hand over hand up all the slack. Again, when the rope comes tight, I immediately let down a few feet to make it clear I am not yet on belay. (3) I put the rope into the belay device and take up the slack I let down, which is the signal for the second to climb.
I like it, I like it alot.
And people say you can't learn anything useful on RC.com...
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