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blueeyedclimber
Jun 15, 2011, 8:47 PM
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...but I can climb. I actually was pretty good at math back in the day. I was in honors math all the way through school. I didn't have an interest in it, however. I was not on the math team. I played basketball and soccer. I could do anything on paper but I was always amazed at the kids who could do problems in their head and just seemed to "get it" without thinking about it. What's my point? Well, there are a whole lot of numbers in climbing. Fall factors, pendulums, different size cracks, different size gear that goes in the different size cracks, some logarithms or what not of holding power for our gadgets, climbs several meters long, ropes just a few mm in diameter, and what the hell is a kilonewton? I mean..I KNOW what it is. Something like 200+lbs. of force or whatever. But REALLY.....What is it? Can I punch you in the face and measure that in kilonewtons? I know that the bigger the gear, the more holding power it has (well, providing I placed it correctly, that is). There is just so much to know and I feel that some people get it and some (like me) only understand it in concept. And by concept, I mean that pit in my stomach that tells me that I probably shouldn't fall on that piece because I am going to get punched in the face by a kilonewton. There is a lot that I can't have a specific intelligent conversation about but I still "get." I don't know what size crack my yellow alien fits, but when I lock my fingers in it, I can reach for the right piece and place it blindly. I probably couldn't accurately calculate a fall factor but I know how to prevent a high one. I don't REALLY know how cams work, but I know how they "work." I probably couldn't tell you what size all of my cams were, and probably with even less accuracy, the size of my nuts (That's what she said). But, I almost always grab the right piece. I don't even know how long my 2 foot runners are (just kidding). I understand why so many engineers are drawn to climbing. It's like a world of infinite math problems. I don't care about any of that, though. I just like to climb. I understand the math to a point. To the point that I stay relatively safe. I understand it the same way I understand how to budget my money. I will never be rich, but I pay my bills and save enough to enjoy myself. I know enough to know when I can run it out and when to sew it up. Josh
(This post was edited by blueeyedclimber on Jun 15, 2011, 8:48 PM)
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Learner
Jun 15, 2011, 8:52 PM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: ...but I can climb. I actually was pretty good at math back in the day. I was in honors math all the way through school. I didn't have an interest in it, however. I was not on the math team. I played basketball and soccer. I could do anything on paper but I was always amazed at the kids who could do problems in their head and just seemed to "get it" without thinking about it. What's my point? Well, there are a whole lot of numbers in climbing. Fall factors, pendulums, different size cracks, different size gear that goes in the different size cracks, some logarithms or what not of holding power for our gadgets, climbs several meters long, ropes just a few mm in diameter, and what the hell is a kilonewton? I mean..I KNOW what it is. Something like 200+lbs. of force or whatever. But REALLY.....What is it? Can I punch you in the face and measure that in kilonewtons? I know that the bigger the gear, the more holding power it has (well, providing I placed it correctly, that is). There is just so much to know and I feel that some people get it and some (like me) only understand it in concept. And by concept, I mean that pit in my stomach that tells me that I probably shouldn't fall on that piece because I am going to get punched in the face by a kilonewton. There is a lot that I can't have a specific intelligent conversation about but I still "get." I don't know what size crack my yellow alien fits, but when I lock my fingers in it, I can reach for the right piece and place it blindly. I probably couldn't accurately calculate a fall factor but I know how to prevent a high one. I don't REALLY know how cams work, but I know how they "work." I probably couldn't tell you what size all of my cams were, and probably with even less accuracy, the size of my nuts (That's what she said). But, I almost always grab the right piece. I don't even know how long my 2 foot runners are (just kidding). I understand why so many engineers are drawn to climbing. It's like a world of infinite math problems. I don't care about any of that, though. I just like to climb. I understand the math to a point. To the point that I stay relatively safe. I understand it the same way I understand how to budget my money. I will never be rich, but I pay my bills and save enough to enjoy myself. I know enough to know when I can run it out and when to sew it up. Josh Wonderful post. That's hilarious and you've got a point.
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moose_droppings
Jun 15, 2011, 9:16 PM
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Yer gonna die!!!111
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no_email_entered
Jun 15, 2011, 9:53 PM
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there's also a lot of 'reading' in climbing numbers rants. this was just inside the limit... ...good post
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amigo25zmy
Jun 16, 2011, 1:20 AM
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Great post, very entertaining to read, especially since most of it is true.
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philbox
Moderator
Jun 16, 2011, 4:22 AM
Post #7 of 24
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Climbing for more than 20 years and I still refer to my cams as the red one or the yellow one. tell me to hand you a number 2 camalot and you'll get a blank stare. I know what size fits in where and I get why it holds or not. Great OP. Oh yes, I have an acquaintance who is all hung up with numbers, he has built a climbing training business on the numbers. so much so that the students need to know what number knot out of the Ashley's Book Of Knots. If you can't recite the numbers then you fail the course. What up with that. Better that you can tie the knot is my theory. Demonstrate that you know how to do what you do rather than be able to be a parrot and recite the numbers. Knowing the number of a knot will not keep you alive.
(This post was edited by philbox on Jun 16, 2011, 4:25 AM)
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blueeyedclimber
Jun 16, 2011, 1:07 PM
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philbox wrote: Climbing for more than 20 years and I still refer to my cams as the red one or the yellow one. tell me to hand you a number 2 camalot and you'll get a blank stare. I know what size fits in where and I get why it holds or not. Yeah. I have such a mish mash of gear that I just eyeball the size for nuts and know the colors and brands of cams and where they will fit. Depending on the climb I am on, I may have a mix of old camalots, new camalots, aliens, C3's, Metolius and Link Cams. For nuts, I think I have some WC mixed in with BD. Maybe it's just me, but I find it amusing when I see climbers have all the same gear (including color and brand of slings and biners (usually shiny new). Thanks.
In reply to: Oh yes, I have an acquaintance who is all hung up with numbers, he has built a climbing training business on the numbers. so much so that the students need to know what number knot out of the Ashley's Book Of Knots. If you can't recite the numbers then you fail the course. What up with that. Better that you can tie the knot is my theory. Demonstrate that you know how to do what you do rather than be able to be a parrot and recite the numbers. Knowing the number of a knot will not keep you alive. The problem with knowing and applying numbers is that there are so many variables which can effect them that I find it more useful in climbing to have experience, to understand concepts, and to climb intuitively. We don't climb on paper, we climb on rocks. I will leave the math problems for the rest of you to argue about. I'm going climbing! Josh
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edge
Jun 16, 2011, 1:45 PM
Post #9 of 24
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Nice post, Josh! I agree 100% (obviously I am still technically a recovering engineer.)
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philbox
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Jun 16, 2011, 9:06 PM
Post #10 of 24
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edge wrote: Nice post, Josh! I agree 100% (obviously I am still technically a recovering engineer.) So you still going every Thursday night to Engineers Anonymous?
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Gmburns2000
Jun 17, 2011, 1:57 AM
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great post Josh, and I agree. I actually don't refer to my cams according to the color (for whatever reason the numbers came naturally to me first), but the only math that I do regularly while I'm climbing is how far above my last piece I am in comparison to the deck / ledge. I'm not a numbers guy either. I also did OK in math in school, but was never interested. I think I'm fine and I think I'll be OK not knowing all the physics of climbing. It actually really bugs me when there are climbers who think I'm going to die because I have neither done nor have any interest in test-pulling my gear. Seriously?!?!? I tip my cap to those who just climb. Cheers!
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kachoong
Jun 17, 2011, 2:24 AM
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I will sometimes identify my pro by volume... standards are different depending on location which makes for yet another conversion table. But what is climbing without conversion tables?
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bearbreeder
Jun 18, 2011, 5:20 PM
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some people here will tell ya youre gonna die if you dont know the exact KN ratings of yr biners at the end of the day, place yr gear properly, use it properly, and climb ... and youll likely live youre MUCH more likely to die from yr screwing up than not knowing being able to do math id bet that quite a few of the best and hardest climbers in the world dont say "hmmm this fall will generate 12 kn of force" ... they just say "fall off belay ... reallll bad" ... and dont fall
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philbox
Moderator
Jun 19, 2011, 1:50 AM
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kachoong wrote: I will sometimes identify my pro by volume... standards are different depending on location which makes for yet another conversion table. But what is climbing without conversion tables? [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/6/150066-largest_41979.jpg[/image] Spaghetti pro never lets you down.
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moose_droppings
Jun 19, 2011, 2:07 AM
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philbox wrote: kachoong wrote: I will sometimes identify my pro by volume... standards are different depending on location which makes for yet another conversion table. But what is climbing without conversion tables? [image]http://www.rockclimbing.com/images/photos/assets/6/150066-largest_41979.jpg[/image] Spaghetti pro never lets you down. Hienz Speghettii pro is = to gear4rocks. Chef Boyardee pro is considerably stronger, makes better contact with the rock, and cleans easier. Not to mention their customer service if top notch. Your life is worth a few more cents.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Jun 19, 2011, 2:12 AM)
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Maleficent
Jun 19, 2011, 5:59 AM
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blueeyedclimber wrote: moose_droppings wrote: Yer gonna die!!!111 We ALL R, my friend. We ALL R! Josh lol, no one gets out of this game alive!! Great post man. I had something interesting happen to me. I climbed alot, from 11-18, got out of it for about 8-9 years. when i came back and headed to the gym for the third time i was trying a route with a friend and i fell on some 5.10ish route, and this guy comes up and says.. "hey bro, i can give you the beta for that climb" now, i understand what beta is and means and all that, however, i've never heard it outside of a forum or magazine, no one has actually said "beta". Normally its hey, do this move or that move and crank that hold or hang your pinky toe above your ear and maneuver your right thumb into that hole and you ace the climb. I agree though, maybe all the math is good to know, but some people (i think) take it a little too far. I keep in mind what each piece can hold kN wise, and about how far up i am from that piece and IF i fell what i think that particular piece could hold. Like the post above says, place your gear right and live. If your biner doesnt have an obviously large cut or gash in it its most likely safe. Just like that guy in the gym, really? just say hey man make this move, no need to be ultra elitest and say "BETA" i dunno, thats just me :D
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enigma
Jun 19, 2011, 9:05 AM
Post #18 of 24
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blueeyedclimber wrote: philbox wrote: Climbing for more than 20 years and I still refer to my cams as the red one or the yellow one. tell me to hand you a number 2 camalot and you'll get a blank stare. I know what size fits in where and I get why it holds or not. Yeah. I have such a mish mash of gear that I just eyeball the size for nuts and know the colors and brands of cams and where they will fit. Depending on the climb I am on, I may have a mix of old camalots, new camalots, aliens, C3's, Metolius and Link Cams. For nuts, I think I have some WC mixed in with BD. Maybe it's just me, but I find it amusing when I see climbers have all the same gear (including color and brand of slings and biners (usually shiny new). Thanks. In reply to: Oh yes, I have an acquaintance who is all hung up with numbers, he has built a climbing training business on the numbers. so much so that the students need to know what number knot out of the Ashley's Book Of Knots. If you can't recite the numbers then you fail the course. What up with that. Better that you can tie the knot is my theory. Demonstrate that you know how to do what you do rather than be able to be a parrot and recite the numbers. Knowing the number of a knot will not keep you alive. The problem with knowing and applying numbers is that there are so many variables which can effect them that I find it more useful in climbing to have experience, to understand concepts, and to climb intuitively. We don't climb on paper, we climb on rocks. I will leave the math problems for the rest of you to argue about. I'm going climbing! Josh Your a colors person- blue eyes! I thought this thread was going to be about you not caring if you could climb 5.11 or 5.13. Those math whiz kids that understand advanced math ,are usually born with natural ability. Just like artistic ability its usually inborn. Play with your cams, or I-SPY book with the children. Have fun! Oh and the numbers game it like a roll of the dice, when your number is up , well you will know!
(This post was edited by enigma on Jun 19, 2011, 9:11 AM)
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cornstateclimber
Jun 19, 2011, 4:43 PM
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the only numbers that get me in climbing are the cost!!!!!! like, i need a new rope=cost. black diamond mother of all cams set=cost. and so on and so on. or "hey i want to go climb this crag, its 997 miles away. @ 17 mpg gonna cost me 550 bucks just to drive there and back. im totally fine with all the kilonewtons, fall factors, number of cams i got, number of nuts, thier sizes, the size of my nuts on some climbs! just cant get the cost numbers down!
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horseshoe
Jun 19, 2011, 4:56 PM
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It sounds like you have a strong intuitive sense of your gear, risk factors, etc. That is more important than having a calculator on your gear sling. I pay more attention to numbers when I am buying a new piece of gear. It is better to rely on your fingers and eyes when placing pro. Lately though, I've only been counting inches of rain.
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I_do
Jun 19, 2011, 6:23 PM
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cornstateclimber wrote: the only numbers that get me in climbing are the cost!!!!!! like, i need a new rope=cost. black diamond mother of all cams set=cost. and so on and so on. or "hey i want to go climb this crag, its 997 miles away. @ 17 mpg gonna cost me 550 bucks just to drive there and back. im totally fine with all the kilonewtons, fall factors, number of cams i got, number of nuts, thier sizes, the size of my nuts on some climbs! just cant get the cost numbers down! You drive a 17 mpg car and then complain about the money it costs to drive somewhere. Typical.
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milesenoell
Jun 19, 2011, 6:58 PM
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Ah, the irony of how learning enough to be competent typically just makes a person aware of how much they don't know.
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cornstateclimber
Jun 20, 2011, 1:59 AM
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I_do wrote: cornstateclimber wrote: the only numbers that get me in climbing are the cost!!!!!! like, i need a new rope=cost. black diamond mother of all cams set=cost. and so on and so on. or "hey i want to go climb this crag, its 997 miles away. @ 17 mpg gonna cost me 550 bucks just to drive there and back. im totally fine with all the kilonewtons, fall factors, number of cams i got, number of nuts, thier sizes, the size of my nuts on some climbs! just cant get the cost numbers down! unfortunently when i bought the car had a great job, money was no object. i bought a vehicle i wanted. now, years later, gas has skyrocketed, and i cant afford to get a new car, so im kinda stuck at the moment, so yeah all you prius pimpin bitches, im jealous. You drive a 17 mpg car and then complain about the money it costs to drive somewhere. Typical.
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blueeyedclimber
Jun 21, 2011, 11:41 AM
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milesenoell wrote: Ah, the irony of how learning enough to be competent typically just makes a person aware of how much they don't know. Very true. The day I realized this, I became a much better climber. Kind of like when one day you are an adult and realize that you don't actually know EVERYTHING. Josh
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