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jasonjm
Jul 24, 2011, 5:16 AM
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Hey all. I do a lot of sports. So a friend of mine recommended to do climbing. So I said OK.
We have been twice now, 2 x 4 hour sessions.
Wanted to ask a few questions:
1) we are both very large, way larger than anyone else at the gym, both taller and much heavier (and the gym is busy, 50+ people climbing always). We are both built very large upper body and arms, 6ft3 and 220lbs. Is being big like this a disadvantage to climbing?
2) I am amazed that some plain looking women can climb stuff we cannot climb (yet?). No offense to women meant. I assume this sport is more skill than strength from watching these women climb? does anyone have an idea for website or videos which show correct technique? I have searched google, but mostly find garbage.
3) on the first 4 hours we climbed, we could not complete a single 5.9 climb. By the 2nd 4 hours session we could climb all the 5.9s, and got close on some 5.10A. At what level of this sport does it get really difficult, where the masses gets sorted out? at what level typically does the average person get permanently stuck, no matter how hard they practice? (every sport has this level, else we would all be professional at our sport eh?).
4) what weight person can safely belay us? we both are kind of risk taking junkies so for example at the top of a wall climb if its tricky we will often just jump into the air to touch the top bar, and that has caused each of us to literally lift the other off the floor. So if we ever climb with other people, what would the weight cutoff be for someone to belay us safely?
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redonkulus
Jul 24, 2011, 5:40 AM
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1) That kinda size can hurt, but it's probably not a deal breaker. I'm 6'2" and I find that I can often breeze through difficult sections of a climb simply by merit of my height. On other climbs, I may be too scrunched up because of my height to have it be an advantage, it just depends on the route. The weight issue is probably the bigger deal. I weigh only 185 or so, and would like to lose at least another 10 lbs to truly be at a pretty good weight for climbing.
2) Yeah, good women climbers are amazing. Their footwork, technique, and other factors let them climb stuff that some guys might just muscle through. However, don't discount finger strength. The forearm muscles that you use most while climbing are probably not something you've ever worked out, and probably haven't ever strengthened the tendons in your fingers either. Most amazing climbers are slim, or at least, not massive. Many great climbers have incredibly strong fingers/forearms, but you can't tell that just by looking at them. It takes a looooong time to get the strong tendons, and a decent amount of time to get strong forearms.
3) There's a relatively well known training book out there called "how to climb 5.12." The author states that he believes that EVERYONE or almost everyone has the ability to climb 5.12. Many people never make it that high because of lack of motivation, lack of commitment, lack of funds/time, whatever, lots of factors. However, he thinks that if you are fully committed and train like crazy, you can reach 5.12. Around the 5.12 grade is when people start to be considered elite climbers. I'd say that high 5.12 is as far as most people could get, and by 13's it is certainly only elite climbers. Pro's climb 14's most likely. However, despite the potential for most people to reach 5.12, I think that most people get sorted out in the 11's. Just a personal observation, nothing much to back it up with.
4) I'm not 100 percent sure on what the weight a belayer gets, but i've heard that when you are belaying you are taking something like 2/3 of a person's weight. No guarantee that that is correct. However, I weigh 185 and I've had a 110lb girl belay me on toprope. I probably wouldn't let her belay me on lead, especially if I knew I might take a fall. However, you can anchor a smaller person to the ground (different ways to do this, and different opinions on what is safe), and as long as they are used to catching all of your weight in a fall, not letting go of the brake hand when they get jerked around, you should be fine.
I'm no expert on any of this stuff, but those have been my personal observations. I'm probably wrong on stuff like the weight you get while belaying, but that's what I've experienced. Good luck, enjoy the sport, hope this helped.
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Greggle
Jul 24, 2011, 6:08 AM
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jasonjm wrote: 2) I am amazed that some plain looking women can climb stuff we cannot climb (yet?). No offense to women meant.
Too late...
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sungam
Jul 24, 2011, 3:18 PM
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jasonjm wrote: Hey all. I do a lot of sports. So a friend of mine recommended to do climbing. So I said OK. We have been twice now, 2 x 4 hour sessions. Wanted to ask a few questions: 1) we are both very large, way larger than anyone else at the gym, both taller and much heavier (and the gym is busy, 50+ people climbing always). We are both built very large upper body and arms, 6ft3 and 220lbs. Is being big like this a disadvantage to climbing? 2) I am amazed that some plain looking women can climb stuff we cannot climb (yet?). No offense to women meant. I assume this sport is more skill than strength from watching these women climb? does anyone have an idea for website or videos which show correct technique? I have searched google, but mostly find garbage. 3) on the first 4 hours we climbed, we could not complete a single 5.9 climb. By the 2nd 4 hours session we could climb all the 5.9s, and got close on some 5.10A. At what level of this sport does it get really difficult, where the masses gets sorted out? at what level typically does the average person get permanently stuck, no matter how hard they practice? (every sport has this level, else we would all be professional at our sport eh?). 4) what weight person can safely belay us? we both are kind of risk taking junkies so for example at the top of a wall climb if its tricky we will often just jump into the air to touch the top bar, and that has caused each of us to literally lift the other off the floor. So if we ever climb with other people, what would the weight cutoff be for someone to belay us safely?
2)Yes, it is mostly technique.
4) just toss some twists into the lines to add friction. Please never call yourself a "risk-taking junkie" or "adrenaline junkie". It will make us all hate you.
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jt512
Jul 24, 2011, 4:02 PM
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jasonjm wrote: 2) I am amazed that some plain looking women can climb stuff we cannot climb (yet?). No offense to women meant. I assume this sport is more skill than strength from watching these women climb? does anyone have an idea for website or videos which show correct technique? I have searched google, but mostly find garbage.
There are no good websites discussing climbing technique. Get this book/DVD: The Self-Coached Climber. You can also learn a lot from watching those women you insulted up-thread.
In reply to: 4) what weight person can safely belay us? we both are kind of risk taking junkies so for example at the top of a wall climb if its tricky we will often just jump into the air to touch the top bar, and that has caused each of us to literally lift the other off the floor. So if we ever climb with other people, what would the weight cutoff be for someone to belay us safely?
If your gym does not have ground anchors for the belayer to tie into, then I'd say not to let anyone whom you outweigh by more than 50 lb. belay you. If they do have belay anchors, then any experienced belayer should be able to belay you safely.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Jul 24, 2011, 4:03 PM)
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ceebo
Jul 24, 2011, 4:34 PM
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jasonjm wrote: Hey all. I do a lot of sports. So a friend of mine recommended to do climbing. So I said OK. We have been twice now, 2 x 4 hour sessions. Wanted to ask a few questions: 1) we are both very large, way larger than anyone else at the gym, both taller and much heavier (and the gym is busy, 50+ people climbing always). We are both built very large upper body and arms, 6ft3 and 220lbs. Is being big like this a disadvantage to climbing? 2) I am amazed that some plain looking women can climb stuff we cannot climb (yet?). No offense to women meant. I assume this sport is more skill than strength from watching these women climb? does anyone have an idea for website or videos which show correct technique? I have searched google, but mostly find garbage. 3) on the first 4 hours we climbed, we could not complete a single 5.9 climb. By the 2nd 4 hours session we could climb all the 5.9s, and got close on some 5.10A. At what level of this sport does it get really difficult, where the masses gets sorted out? at what level typically does the average person get permanently stuck, no matter how hard they practice? (every sport has this level, else we would all be professional at our sport eh?). 4) what weight person can safely belay us? we both are kind of risk taking junkies so for example at the top of a wall climb if its tricky we will often just jump into the air to touch the top bar, and that has caused each of us to literally lift the other off the floor. So if we ever climb with other people, what would the weight cutoff be for someone to belay us safely?
To get past the likes of 11.d and into the .12's would require so much ''good'' climbing specific training that you would most likely drop allot of unneeded weight in that process. Most things below that can be power housed with limited ability and raw brawn. At your kinde level for every 10lb you lose i would take a cautious guess that you will will be able to climb a single letter grade higher with the current physical ability. Technique gains will also have a similar or greater effect, if both are achieved together you will obviously see massive gains.
The late 11's are definitely a cut off point of those who are doing things right to those who are doing things wrong.. from a grade chasing point of view.
I will say, their is not a great deal of difference between a light new climber trying to do .11d he is not ready for over a heavy new climber trying to do a .11a he is not ready for. From a finger injury perspective both are putting them self at risk.
Going higher than 10.d in your case would probably be a bad move. After another 6 month and plenty of reading go for it.
Also, the grades are not consistent in progress. In the first year you may see improvement of 2 whole grades.. in the second year you may see 1. As you get higher into the .12s/13.s you may only see a single letter grade improvement in a whole year. A full grade improvement at that point could take 3 years and then some.
The most important thing is to read as much as possible on how to train.. and then be realistic in what your own personal body can handle. You need to just consider yourself as an ''avg'' climber.. and then go with all the recommendations that people have gave on what level and volume you should be going with. That will limit your risk of injury and massively improve progress (you don't have to climb hard to improve).
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jasonjm
Jul 24, 2011, 5:12 PM
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to previous posters: yes we definitely have close to zero technique. When I watch my friend climb he looks like a giant angry spider on the wall, all twisted up and just using strength and reach to try get through anything, very often i have to shout to him to put his feet somewhere as both of his feet are not on anything, and I'm sure I look the same.
Would be pretty much impossible for either of us to drop any weight, both genetically very big, and play a lot of other sport which being smaller would be a disadvantage, and I'd have to eat like 1000 calories per day, and then I would get headaches and feel terrible, so it will never happen. So I'll just do the best I can do at this weight.
thanks for advice all, I ordered those books.
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redonkulus
Jul 24, 2011, 5:41 PM
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Yeah, not to say you can't be big and climb hard, but at the very elite grades you won't see many big guys. If you play football, and that's what you want to be best at, stay the same size. If you decide to take up climbing as your main priority, you may find yourself wanting to get a bit smaller. It's all your personal preference. I played college soccer and didn't want to lose any weight, especially in my legs or other areas that aren't as important for climbing but are for soccer. Now that i'm done with soccer, i can focus on losing some weight, cutting back on overall muscle a bit, and focusing on climbing muscle.
Just climb for fun, and if you get hooked, you'll probably change your lifestyle a bit.
As to technique, it'll come with lots of climbing. try and hop on some slab routes, with small handholds and small feet. That will make you focus on your footwork because you won't be able to just pull yourself up. Helped me. Good luck.
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rgold
Jul 24, 2011, 7:56 PM
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Climbing is primarily about technique, but strength plays a role on routes that are vertical and beyond, which is to say just about all gym routes.
The bad news for you guys is that it is strength relative to weight, and that "plain-looking woman" you mentioned might very well be stronger than you for her weight. Moreover, very few muscular athletes have the hand strength and endurance to match their upper-body power, so from a climbing perspective they are like the result of putting a high-performance engine in a jalopy chassis. If you can't hang on, it doesn't matter how strong your upper body is (and conversely, if you aren't very strong you can compensate with all kinds of technique tricks).
A clue about women's potential superiority in the strength-to-weight department: the world's record for one-arm pullups is held by a Canadian woman aerialist, Lillian Leitzel, who could do 26 on her "strong" arm and 13 on her "weak" arm. Most fit men can't manage 26 two-arm pullups, and there are extremely few men who manage to break double-digits for one-arm pullups on either arm, much less both.
The elite sport-climbing grades seem to be the province of skinny men and women. But the legendary boulder John Gill was a pretty big guy, so elite grades are at least conceivable if (a big if) you have the requisite genetics.
There are, by the way, multiple lifetimes of climbing below those elite grades, and there are genres in which the big folks have advantages. What you see in the gym is a very tiny corner of the climbing world.
One of the interesting things about rock climbing, because of the strength-to-weight nature and the importance of technique, is that there is almost no difference between men and women. Lynn Hill was arguably the world's best rock climber for many years, and her free ascent of the Nose on El Cap has seen almost no repeats.
I think it is safe to say that no matter how good you guys get, there will be plenty of women who will kick your asses out of the ballpark, to mix a metaphor or two. Get used to a new environment of equality if you're going to get into climbing.
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redonkulus
Jul 24, 2011, 8:02 PM
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rgold wrote: I think it is safe to say that no matter how good you guys get, there will be plenty of women who will kick your asses out of the ballpark, to mix a metaphor or two.
And they'll love doing it too, if you act surprised every time you see a strong woman climber...
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jacques
Jul 24, 2011, 11:51 PM
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rgold wrote: Climbing is primarily about technique, but strength plays a role on routes that are vertical and beyond, which is to say just about all gym routes. The bad news for you guys is that it is strength relative to weight, and that "plain-looking woman" you mentioned might very well be stronger than you for her weight. Moreover, very few muscular athletes have the hand strength and endurance to match their upper-body power, so from a climbing perspective they are like the result of putting a high-performance engine in a jalopy chassis. If you can't hang on, it doesn't matter how strong your upper body is (and conversely, if you aren't very strong you can compensate with all kinds of technique tricks). A clue about women's potential superiority in the strength-to-weight department: the world's record for one-arm pullups is held by a Canadian woman aerialist, Lillian Leitzel, who could do 26 on her "strong" arm and 13 on her "weak" arm. Most fit men can't manage 26 two-arm pullups, and there are extremely few men who manage to break double-digits for one-arm pullups on either arm, much less both. The elite sport-climbing grades seem to be the province of skinny men and women. But the legendary boulder John Gill was a pretty big guy, so elite grades are at least conceivable if (a big if) you have the requisite genetics. There are, by the way, multiple lifetimes of climbing below those elite grades, and there are genres in which the big folks have advantages. What you see in the gym is a very tiny corner of the climbing world. One of the interesting things about rock climbing, because of the strength-to-weight nature and the importance of technique, is that there is almost no difference between men and women. Lynn Hill was arguably the world's best rock climber for many years, and her free ascent of the Nose on El Cap has seen almost no repeats. I think it is safe to say that no matter how good you guys get, there will be plenty of women who will kick your asses out of the ballpark, to mix a metaphor or two. Get used to a new environment of equality if you're going to get into climbing.
well describe and very intereting.
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rgold
Jul 25, 2011, 1:29 AM
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Here's another big guy who hasn't figured out what women can do:
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jasonjm
Jul 25, 2011, 1:41 AM
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rock climbing is the first sport I have ever seen/done where the gap between men and women is so small to none.
I cannot do any one arm pullups or chinups, not even close to 1.
I guess because your hands and fingers never really get much stronger, thats why being lighter weight is better, as the key is how much power your hands and fingers and arms can move in % to your overall bodyweight?
Ironically I can actually feel myself getting bigger from climbing, not smaller. It's one hell of a workout. And I feel overall stronger already at the weight room this morning.
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rgold
Jul 25, 2011, 1:55 AM
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Don't sweat the one-arm pullups, they're a party trick. You absolutely do not need them for climbing. I mentioned them to indicate that women are capable of relative strength feats equivalent to if not greater than men.
Hands and fingers definitely can get much stronger, and there are endless internet discussions about how best to accomplish this. But focusing on it at the beginning of the learning process will only retard progress, because you goal, if you are interested in the sport, is to learn technique and adding to your strength will actually encourage you to climb poorly and so impede real progress.
The reason climbing seems like a hell of a workout now is because, according to your description, you guys are in possession of almost no technique. If someone told you to climb a ladder up to a roof, would you lie against the rungs and pull yourself up with your hands? Sounds like that's close to what you are doing in the gym. (Of course, footholds are not rungs, but the idea is the same.)
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JoeHamilton
Jul 25, 2011, 3:39 AM
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When I first started climbing there was ya saying, and yes I've mentioned this before. " CLIMB LIKE A GIRL " meaning use your feet and legs more then your arms. It is said yet proven wrong that men have more upper body strength then woman in a genetic sense. So men tend to use that upper body strength to muscle there way up. Woman use there leg muscles to climb up. Hope that helps make some sense to you in that area. Not sure but I think Climbing definitely makes one stronger but doesn't really create mass. I would focus on forearm strength over biceps . Also on the abs, much of your climbing strength comes from the core .
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swoopee
Jul 25, 2011, 3:58 AM
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Yes, women generally climb better than men. Either get used to it, or refuse to climb whenever women are present.
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jasonjm
Jul 25, 2011, 4:39 AM
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nah I don't mind, I have already asked some of the women climbers to climb the routes i get stuck on so I can watch how they do it.
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wwalt822
Jul 25, 2011, 9:30 PM
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jasonjm wrote: 4) for example at the top of a wall climb if its tricky we will often just jump into the air to touch the top bar
This doesn't count as finishing the route in most peoples books and probably makes you look like a wanker.
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MTBZEN
Jul 25, 2011, 10:45 PM
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jasonjm wrote: nah I don't mind, I have already asked some of the women climbers to climb the routes i get stuck on so I can watch how they do it.
Smart man.
I'm new too and have gotten a TON of great stuff from the book recommended.
Have fun!
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redonkulus
Jul 25, 2011, 10:50 PM
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jasonjm wrote: nah I don't mind, I have already asked some of the women climbers to climb the routes i get stuck on so I can watch how they do it.
Aaaaaand, you turned climbing into a great way to meet ladies. See, what a great sport!
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djlachelt
Jul 26, 2011, 3:39 PM
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jasonjm wrote: When I watch my friend climb he looks like a giant angry spider on the wall, all twisted up and just using strength and reach to try get through anything, very often i have to shout to him to put his feet somewhere as both of his feet are not on anything, and I'm sure I look the same.
I like your description, "giant angry spider". Good for you to notice the feet. When climbing in a gym, even on very difficult routes, I find that it is VERY rare that I have to make a move without at least one foot on a hold. And when it do it is generally walking my feet up to another foot hold... almost never will I make a hand move while both feet are smearing on the wall.
Next time you go in spend some time at the gym just watching other good climbers (men and women). Look for three things: 1) Notice how they place their feet on a hold and then reach for a hand-hold. 2) Sometimes they'll even make two or three foot movements before reaching for the next hand-hold. 3) And frequently after making a foot movement they will reposition their body, typically turning their hips one way or the other before making the reach for the next hand-hold. Why? Because then they can make the move to the hand-hold with minimal hand-strength using legs to raise their body higher.
Perhaps the biggest mistake beginners make is to paw their feet up the wall expecting that somehow their feet will magically find a place to land. Good climbers NEVER do this. If you watch them carefully they always look at their feet when placing them on the holds. They are looking to make sure their feet are placed precisely where they want them... THEN they do the same with the hand-holds, grasping the hold for maximum benefit according to where their body is going next.
When I'm coaching my HS climbers I always joke with them if I notice their feet sliding down the wall. Climbing shoes are expensive, and most HS climbers are poor. So I tell them they just wasted 50cents worth of rubber skidding their shoes on the wall.
Sounds like you are on the right track. Have fun! And don't be surprised if you begin to lose some weight. I've known a few heavy people that dropped significant weight when they started climbing. One guy is very trim, but I noticed that he has stretch marks around his middle from how big he used to be, and the only exercise he gets is climbing. But even if you don't lose weight you know you are doing your body good - getting a full-body workout and having fun at the same time.
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adelphos
Jul 29, 2011, 12:17 AM
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Hey I just wanted to add a couple of things to the already excellent responses previous to my own.
I want to echo the sentiment expressed by many already that you really need to get over sexism when it comes to climbing. Most women are naturally better climbers than men.
I also wanted to comment on your approach to this sport. You really do not want to focus on grading up when you start. A lot of good technique can be learned on the lower grades and simply focusing on climbing hard can really hurt your development in the long run.
The last thing I would like to mention is that if you have been climbing two or three times and have gone for four hours at a stretch, that is a whole lot of climbing for a beginner. You need to take it slow. It takes a long time for your body to develop the strength to deal with the stresses generated by climbing. You probably won't believe me and will probably try to push through a painful day just like you have done in every other sport. Just recall that I told you so. It doesn't take much to develop tendonitis and/or finger injuries. Recovery takes months.
Voice of experience here, take it easy and climb on!
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irrational
Jul 29, 2011, 8:27 PM
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adelphos wrote: climbing. Most women are naturally better climbers than men.
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swoopee
Jul 29, 2011, 9:15 PM
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irrational wrote: adelphos wrote: climbing. Most women are naturally better climbers than men. Which is also sexism.
Sexism? On the part of the people that say that women are better climbers? Or the women for being better climbers? 
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sungam
Jul 30, 2011, 12:24 PM
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swoopee wrote: irrational wrote: adelphos wrote: climbing. Most women are naturally better climbers than men. Which is also sexism. Sexism? On the part of the people that say that women are better climbers? Or the women for being better climbers?
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