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rossross
Nov 22, 2011, 4:16 PM
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"shockabuku wrote: The more interesting question for me is wtf are the extra biners in the bolt hangers for?
The extra biners are off the lower quickdraws, they were taken off in order to properly attach two quickdraws together so the anchor hangs over the edge. They are placed above the loaded quickdraws on the anchor so they are not causing the loaded biners to bend un an unwanted way. So they are of no concern. However yes the middle biners are loaded over an edge which is not ideal.
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shockabuku
Nov 22, 2011, 8:14 PM
Post #77 of 91
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rossross wrote: "shockabuku wrote: The more interesting question for me is wtf are the extra biners in the bolt hangers for? The extra biners are off the lower quickdraws, they were taken off in order to properly attach two quickdraws together so the anchor hangs over the edge. They are placed above the loaded quickdraws on the anchor so they are not causing the loaded biners to bend un an unwanted way. So they are of no concern. However yes the middle biners are loaded over an edge which is not ideal.
Oh, I see - storage. Thanks.
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Rmsyll2
Nov 23, 2011, 4:01 AM
Post #78 of 91
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JT said, agreeing with others, "this is a beginner question," False, and I'm sorry to see JT of all people reading so poorly. The question was posed for those who were using a Quadralette, which is usually, where I see them, group leaders with liability concerns and claiming maximum safety via super-redundancy with a prepared tool that works at all relevant locations. It was stated to be about top-rope in the first few words, which means, where I climb, bolted hangers on the rim, as shown in a photo supplied after the initial post to clarify a point I had assumed needed no such details.
The recent photo of quick-draws used over a rim was from this past weekend, and illustrates what would be the result of following advice in this topic, which was off-topic to start with. How anyone, and Jay of all people, can blithely accept perching carabiners over a rock edge, dunno. And how the very posters who are trashing the original post and filling the files with a hundred off-topic replies can then say that rc.com is a trash pile, dunno.
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jt512
Nov 23, 2011, 4:10 AM
Post #79 of 91
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Rmsyll2 wrote: JT said, agreeing with others, "this is a beginner question," False, and I'm sorry to see JT of all people reading so poorly. The question was posed for those who were using a Quadralette, which is usually, where I see them, group leaders with liability concerns and claiming maximum safety via super-redundancy with a prepared tool that works at all relevant locations. It was stated to be about top-rope in the first few words, which means, where I climb, bolted hangers on the rim, as shown in a photo supplied after the initial post to clarify a point I had assumed needed no such details. The recent photo of quick-draws used over a rim was from this past weekend, and illustrates what would be the result of following advice in this topic, which was off-topic to start with. How anyone, and Jay of all people, can blithely accept perching carabiners over a rock edge, dunno. And how the very posters who are trashing the original post and filling the files with a hundred off-topic replies can then say that rc.com is a trash pile, dunno. .
Sorry, but it's not I who needs to check his reading comprehension. I posted not once, but twice, in this thread that the two-quickdraw solution was for when the bolts are on the face; that when the bolts are on the top surface of the formation that the anchor should be extended over the edge using slings or the like. How anyone can read that as me "blithely accept[ing] perching carabiners over a rock edge" is beyond me.
Jay
(This post was edited by jt512 on Nov 23, 2011, 4:16 AM)
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chilli
Nov 23, 2011, 6:38 AM
Post #80 of 91
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Rmsyll2 wrote: Jim Titt said "Just clip the bolts with anything, redundancy is desirable." 'chilli' said "you really don't need anything more than a couple of draws when setting up from the top" See attached photo of TR rigging by a woman who considers herself quite experienced and capable.
Damnit. Misinterpretation or inappropriate advice given due to lack of information regarding the particular situation is one of my major problems with the notion of beginners getting advice on forums. Not talking about you, specifically, Rmsyll - your question was a little more targeted than "how do I set up TR?" And you provided photos, albeit later than my statement that you quoted.
At any rate, the quoted statement regarding just using draws functions under the assumption that the bolts are on a face instead of the top of the cliff (perhaps my wording could have been better).
Rmsyll2 wrote: The recent photo of quick-draws used over a rim was from this past weekend, and illustrates what would be the result of following advice in this topic, which was off-topic to start with...  ). That's a perfectly fine time for another extension. By the way, the quad photo in the OP looks fine to me (though I don't know why you are using the links instead of biners= extra time/effort w/o benefit).
IMO if you're risking loading a biner on the edge of the rock, then it's time to go to other options...
1) webbing/slings: long/trad draws or tied - whichever.
2) cord: choose your -lette or independent legs.
3) whatever nifty gadget metolius/BD/whoever is selling these days.
Others have said they don't like the quad. Personally, in cases when I'm using cord to setup slingshot on bolts, then I'm probably going to tie a quad; not because I'm worried about balancing loads to keep bolts from shooting out of the rock, but because it's 2 knots, 4 biners, and no fiddling with any equalization* (not to mention redundant overkill for strength at minimal cost). On top of that, after I've tied it once, it's the same thing as draws: clip and go for the rest of your TR day.
Regardless of my biases, I say use whichever method you like if it's simple, safe, and you're satisfied.
*Yes, Jim, I know that your expertise has shown dynamic equalization to be a bullshit hassle with the risk of extension onto dyneema, but the options are either traditional static equalization or dynamic (i.e. the aforementioned). Using nylon cord and 2 solid bolts, it comes down to personal preference, IMHO.
[edited for an attempt at clarity]
(This post was edited by chilli on Nov 23, 2011, 7:01 AM)
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JimTitt
Nov 23, 2011, 8:01 AM
Post #81 of 91
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chilli wrote: *Yes, Jim, I know that your expertise has shown dynamic equalization to be a bullshit hassle with the risk of extension onto dyneema, but the options are either traditional static equalization or dynamic (i.e. the aforementioned). Using nylon cord and 2 solid bolts, it comes down to personal preference, IMHO. [ edited for an attempt at clarity]
Thatīs o.k, in the situation we seem to be discussing it really doesnīt matter which is why the `just use a couple of slingsī answer (which was the first reply) got it right. If someone wants to carry miles of cord, rigging rope, webbing or whatever and tie knots all over the place thatīs up to them.
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JimTitt
Nov 23, 2011, 9:25 AM
Post #82 of 91
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Perhaps you could look again at your original post. You introduce a proposition "That is the only way I know to actually equalize tension on the anchors, as we are supposed to try to do." which is merely repeating misinformation since you will not achieve equalisation and a static system would be more likely to achieve this, (nor incidentally are `weī supposed to do anything).
You then describe various ways of clipping into the quadralette which show that the users either donīt know the best system (and thus by definition their opinions are worthless) OR that all solutions are equal and therefore it is irrelevant and then you invite comments.
The comments have a basic theme running through them;- that the quadralette or whatever is unescessarily complicated with no benefit. Clearly if people like Mark Hudon think this is the case then there must be a considerable amount of truth in this view since his experience of vastly more complex belay systems is extensive to say the least (go on bigwalls.com and read his trip reports).
To retrurn to your original post, clearly the optimum solution to which strands to clip through is clear, one karabiner through each strand is safe, easy to check and provides even more redundancy. If you are already carrying a cordalette then a few more karabiners donīt matter!
As to the draws over the edge scenario, the question of edge loading karabiners wouldnīt arise if the person who set that up followed the advice in the first reply to your post which was clear, concise and correct.
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socalclimber
Nov 23, 2011, 11:54 AM
Post #83 of 91
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That setup is a perfect example of how a simple cordelette would solve a simple problem. I too wonder about the extra biners at the bolts.
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sp115
Nov 23, 2011, 12:04 PM
Post #84 of 91
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Rmsyll2 wrote: JT said, agreeing with others, "this is a beginner question," False, and I'm sorry to see JT of all people reading so poorly. The question was posed for those who were using a Quadralette, which is usually, where I see them, group leaders with liability concerns and claiming maximum safety via super-redundancy with a prepared tool that works at all relevant locations. It was stated to be about top-rope in the first few words, which means, where I climb, bolted hangers on the rim, as shown in a photo supplied after the initial post to clarify a point I had assumed needed no such details. The recent photo of quick-draws used over a rim was from this past weekend, and illustrates what would be the result of following advice in this topic, which was off-topic to start with. How anyone, and Jay of all people, can blithely accept perching carabiners over a rock edge, dunno. And how the very posters who are trashing the original post and filling the files with a hundred off-topic replies can then say that rc.com is a trash pile, dunno. .
The very first reply got it right, so now ask yourself why you got 82 more. And if you come up with "everyone else is missing the point", ask it again.
(This post was edited by sp115 on Nov 23, 2011, 12:14 PM)
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cracklover
Nov 23, 2011, 5:54 PM
Post #85 of 91
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Registered: Nov 14, 2002
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Rmsyll2 wrote: JT said, agreeing with others, "this is a beginner question," False, and I'm sorry to see JT of all people reading so poorly. The question was posed for those who were using a Quadralette, which is usually, where I see them, group leaders with liability concerns and claiming maximum safety via super-redundancy with a prepared tool that works at all relevant locations. It was stated to be about top-rope in the first few words, which means, where I climb, bolted hangers on the rim, as shown in a photo supplied after the initial post to clarify a point I had assumed needed no such details. The recent photo of quick-draws used over a rim was from this past weekend, and illustrates what would be the result of following advice in this topic, which was off-topic to start with. How anyone, and Jay of all people, can blithely accept perching carabiners over a rock edge, dunno. And how the very posters who are trashing the original post and filling the files with a hundred off-topic replies can then say that rc.com is a trash pile, dunno. .
No, it really is a beginner question. And, frankly, most beginners would be capable of understanding that if all the users say the best solution is two slings with four biners, then if the bolt hangers are over the lip at the top, you should use two (or four or whatever) foot slings, not some jingus setup with quickdraws.
It's actually very elementary, and shouldn't require any explanation.
You asked:
Q: What's the best way to use this overcomplicated setup to solve this simple problem.
And overwhelming got the response:
A: Here is a simpler and superior solution to your problem.
Don't blame everyone else for the fact that you don't get it.
GO
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chilli
Nov 23, 2011, 7:43 PM
Post #86 of 91
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JimTitt wrote: Thatīs o.k, in the situation we seem to be discussing it really doesnīt matter which is why the `just use a couple of slingsī answer (which was the first reply) got it right. If someone wants to carry miles of cord, rigging rope, webbing or whatever and tie knots all over the place thatīs up to them.
True and true. Looking objectively at my previous statement, and looking at the variables in play, I was really choosing a far more cumbersome and verbose way of explaining my stance when I'm out with some friends for TR (which I admittedly rarely do anymore).
That is simply this: If I come to 2 bolts for an anchor, then I look down at whatever I have handy. If it's slings, then it's simple --> 2 legs and done. If it's cord, then I have no qualms with the notion of using a quad --> also nice and simple.
Again, a little objective reflection on my part yields the fact that the I may have missed the core of the question in the OP; that being, which is best. In a broader sense I would have to say that the BEST option is knowing and understanding the applications/limitations/benefits/risks of the tools in your head and not based on absolutes. Then, you can always stack odds well, regardless of variables.
[edit to delete a double quote]
(This post was edited by chilli on Nov 23, 2011, 7:46 PM)
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marc801
Nov 23, 2011, 8:29 PM
Post #87 of 91
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chilli wrote: In a broader sense I would have to say that the BEST option is knowing and understanding the applications/limitations/benefits/risks of the tools in your head and not based on absolutes. Then, you can always stack odds well, regardless of variables.
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binrat
Nov 24, 2011, 3:37 AM
Post #88 of 91
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marc801 wrote: chilli wrote: In a broader sense I would have to say that the BEST option is knowing and understanding the applications/limitations/benefits/risks of the tools in your head and not based on absolutes. Then, you can always stack odds well, regardless of variables. This is true, but unfortunately the OP has repeatedly demonstrated in this and other threads that he is basically incapable of doing that and is constantly seeking absolutes and a single set of unchanging rules to apply in all situations.
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ajkclay
Nov 24, 2011, 1:12 PM
Post #89 of 91
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I think this set up is demonstrated in the movie "Top Rope Tough Guys" - sounds bomber :)
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JimTitt
Nov 24, 2011, 3:14 PM
Post #90 of 91
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ajkclay wrote: I think this set up is demonstrated in the movie "Top Rope Tough Guys" - sounds bomber :)
Careful, weīve already been warned about discussing top-ropers as a species:-
"lead climbers who think top-ropers are equivalent to dog shit on their shoes."
Anyway, todays top-roper is tomorrows uber-wad working a new line.
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ajkclay
Nov 25, 2011, 4:19 AM
Post #91 of 91
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JimTitt wrote: ajkclay wrote: I think this set up is demonstrated in the movie "Top Rope Tough Guys" - sounds bomber :) Careful, weīve already been warned about discussing top-ropers as a species:- "lead climbers who think top-ropers are equivalent to dog shit on their shoes." Anyway, todays top-roper is tomorrows uber-wad working a new line.
heh heh :)
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