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boulderingmadman
Jan 6, 2003, 8:10 PM
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this is %@#$ing hillarious...
all you people who are saying "oh, Samet is just taking the piss. its funny. its a jhoke..." you are the same people that bitch over and over and over again about the people that do THE SAME DAMN THING on this website.
if samet had come to rc.com and posted a thread with the same exact words he used in the article, yet posted it anonymously, you guys would now be crying and whining to have hime banned because his posts have nothing important to say and are "purely to make someone else mad".
thats pretty friggin ridiculous. the guy writes an article, publishes it in what USED to be a world-class climbing mag, and you guiys are OK with it.
yet people like Lox, and GAWD, and myself do the EXACT SAME THING in our posts on this board, and we deserve to get banned...
and somehow through all of this smoke up the asses of the mods, you guys think that this is OK?? do you NOT see the irony and hipocrisy in this? and then you wonder why ppl like me and lox get so pissed when you guys go on your little whiny tirades about "ban him. hes bad for the site..."
all i can say is LAME
[ This Message was edited by: boulderingmadman on 2003-01-06 12:11 ]
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tim
Jan 6, 2003, 8:24 PM
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Nope, nobody would ban Samet for that, you and Kalcario do it constantly and neither of you is ever going to be banned for that.
What gets people banned is repeated attempts to systematically destroy the integrity of the site. Obscenities on the front page, widespread hijacking of threads, and personal threats to members are the only three things I can think of that will do it. I have never seen anyone make a credible threat on another member, so that leaves items #1 and #2.
Curse all you want in Community, post all the snide articles you want, it's not going to ruffle anyone's feathers. You have to convince the management that you're actually out to destroy the site's integrity before anyone is going to take you seriously.
If Samet's star wanes at Climbing you can damn well bet he won't be getting any handouts from Primedia for 'telling it like it is'. If your pal Lox was attracting more users than he was driving away, he'd still be around. The site's management acts to preserve or increase the appeal of the site to the broadest audience possible, and sometimes that means that foulmouthed users whose 'contributions' could be easily simulated by a Perl script are not welcome.
nb. Gawd is an active user on the site.
Lox has his own site where he can publish whatever he damn well pleases. It's not our problem if he can't control himself over here. Unlike Lox, Gawd apparently can modulate any impulse to spray uncontrollably.
(edit: spelling)
[ This Message was edited by: tim on 2003-01-07 10:57 ]
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natec
Jan 6, 2003, 8:25 PM
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Uh yeah, ^he's pretty right on.
I haven't focused on how bad the magazines suck lately. Been too busy climbing, you guys should try it sometime.
Edit: Boulderingmadman was right on. I posted at the same time as Tim.
[ This Message was edited by: natec on 2003-01-07 10:39 ]
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drector
Jan 6, 2003, 9:07 PM
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The spraylord article seemed pretty lame.
The 5 worst crags article would be usful if I was about to go to one of those places since road-noise and other non-chipping related stuff can be helpful to know. beyond that, it was interesting to learn about some new places both good and bad.
I've noticed a change in the magazine but I can't say that every issue sucks. It seemed like there was always a bit of crap mixed in with the few good articles.
Dave
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mreardon
Jan 7, 2003, 12:54 AM
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Can't please all. Editing and writing articles is tough. Personally I thought the issue was pretty good compared to those in the past (how many times can they publish the same noise about Yosemite and Sharma - oh wait, the climbing staff moved to R&I and are doing exactly that). Thesenga and Samet are at least posting opinion pieces. And they state in the 5 best/worst that it's subjective and the criteria was biased. Obviously it's a joke and one done with some attitude rather than middle of the road nonsense like normal. I also thought Samet's article was pretty good. Again, attitude isn't a bad thing, especially done with sarcasm. Don't like them, then suggest better articles to fill the pages, not just "that sucked" comments.
VBouldering is definitely one of the better to come along in a while, but it's very niche market and not for many. A regional would be good (especially in So Cal) but getting people to put up the dough is always tough.
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roughster
Jan 7, 2003, 1:26 AM
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Mike,
I agree to some extent, but as stated, if magazine sales are so down as an industry, is it smart to try and further divide you subscribers.
I think if anything the recent downward trend is really priming the market for a good Rock Climbing magazine.
Sport, bouldering, free trad. Those will always be the big sellers of mags. If VBouldering were to pick up sport climbing, it would easily become the premiere magazine.
I messed with Motherrock for a year or two, maybe I should start a local rag for the Bay Area. It is not the 1st time I have kicked around the idea.
Hmm mayeb this will finally be the thing that pushes me to do it.
NOTE: Anyone interested in contributing to a California local scene rag?
Heheh
[ This Message was edited by: roughster on 2003-01-06 17:35 ]
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misha
Jan 7, 2003, 1:44 AM
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How dare Climbing propose ethics, the next thing you know they'll be saying that chipping and bolting as bad.
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roughster
Jan 7, 2003, 2:11 AM
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Yes because calling Jack's Canyon for example a "worst" crag because of chipping and then turning around and calling Rifle a "best" crag which also has extensive chipping is a "good" lesson in ethics.
I beleive that "ethic" is called hypocrasy.
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sharmagod
Jan 7, 2003, 3:04 AM
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I have a couple "Gripped" mags and really enjoy it. Very good reads....although I also collect R&I and Climbing.
Jason
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boulderingmadman
Jan 7, 2003, 3:46 AM
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let me start by apologizing for being WAY off topic, but im replying to a post in this thread so...
tim--i appreciate your response, and actually agree with you. im unaware of any hacking into threads, and lox isnt really my "friend", just an internet aquaintence...
however, my post was directed more at the forum members who cry foul than towards the mods that try to mediate...i was referring to the hipocrisy of the masses rather than the the mods...
back on topic--whether or not i liked these particualr articles is beside the point. yes, the spraylord article was (very moderately) humourous. my recent problems with climbing arent so much the articles by samet themselves...but rather the attitude they represent. as i said in my previous post, it appears as though climbing isnt interested in the validity of any form of climbing that isnt on the front line of the sport.
i dont like that they invalidate bouldering by dismissing the locals of most of the major areas, and then you flip the page and see tori allen or sharma sending some "new project"...as if the little guys that actually PAY for the magazine dont count.
i dont like that they gripe about sportclimbers and their "ethics" of bolting, and you flip the page and see a 5 pg article about some new mixed route (which is nothing more than glorified and prolonged chipping IMHO).
i dont like that they call alpine routes "easy" because they are acheivable by anyone with some skill and balls...yet hollywood hans florine or dean potter knocking 15 seconds of the last yosemite speed record is newsworthy...
i dont like that they gripe about the "young punks" wearing "climber cum skater" apparrel hanging out at the crags...until that 15 yr old phenom sends a 5.14d on his second try...then hes their new favorite "climber to watch for"...
its just the blatant disconcern for the climbing public that i see becoming more and more apparrent in BOTH major magazines. its almost as if theyve decided that our feelings dont matter...just the dollars from the corporate sponsors...
...but i could be wrong...
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tim
Jan 7, 2003, 4:08 AM
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See now, that (^^ see above) is why I appreciate Vbouldering (though I don't boulder), Alpinist (because I do like alpine routes), and in the past, Boulderdash.
As for Dean Potter, 15 minutes off a speed record is not such a big deal, but freesoloing the Supercanaleta and Compressor Route is something else. That's amazing.
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roughster
Jan 7, 2003, 4:38 AM
Post #37 of 50
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*gasp* BMan and I agree on this issue.
Quick someone check the forcast for Hell!
Heheh just kidding, Bman you very much hit the nail on the head and is why I included [i}Attitude
I loved the fact that the Raving/Barking Mad (whatever?) "alpinist" shows a sport climbing spraying about bolting the whole world in the cartoon, and yet on the next page it shows an "alpinist" Mixed Climber climbing out a 100% bolted roof climb.
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traddad
Jan 7, 2003, 3:50 PM
Post #38 of 50
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Has anyone alerted the Climbing and R&I staff about this thread? (one would hope that they would follow a site as large and cosmopolitan as this)
Some good and considered commentary here. Boulderinghardman hits the nail on the head, especially when pointing out the contradiction between Climbing’s new found disdain for sport climbing and it’s fawning love affair with mixed ice climbing.
Hmmmmmm, can you say easy and cheap target?
The state of American climbing literature is dismal. R&I and Climbing are like two maggots fighting over a $#!1pile while a filet mignon lies on the ground next to them. One might call it a crisis of vision. There are breathtaking events happening all over the climbing world: from the anarchical skateboard culture of young boulderers to the dinosaur rock alpinists like Jim Donini. From the flashy, Hollywood-esque speed freak Yosemite scene to some soloist spending three weeks tapping his or her way up some isolated wall in Greenland. From the latest comp news to the oldest bit of climbing history. There are so many good stories out there, why do they have to resort to mean spirited attempts to start the functional equivalent of a bar fight? My only answer is that they, like broadcast television and the music industry, are merchandising for the lowest common denominator. If it drools it rules.
Vbouldering is good and I’ll probably buy a subscription, but bouldering is only one facet of climbing.
You guys should start your own mag.
Traddad
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climbsomething
Jan 7, 2003, 5:54 PM
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Boo hoo wah. This squeaking sound is what sputters from dissatisfied readers far more than the journalists actually getting dissed.
Journalists are told, from their first day as pink-cheeked cub reporters, "you're damned if you do, and you're damned if you don't." They accept this. They have to have a thick skin, and in fact, some of them are darkly amused by conflict. They KNOW not everybody loves them and some of them rather like it. It takes more than a mere, "uh, you SUCK" to rattle them.
Some people like Matt Samet, some people don't. Some people like Vbouldering, some don't. Some people like satirical comic strips, some people don't even notice them. Ad finitum. Of course, this has been said.
Try being a journalist, an editor. You'd be surprised how long that little 15" article (~420 words) took to transform from incoherent goobledygook to a digestible piece tucked inside that somebody might read. Try doing this for peanuts in a messy, crowded newsroom, where "overtime pay" and "sanity" share shelf space with the Tooth Fairy and The Great Pumpkin.
Of course, this has also been said.
So, you then decide that you DO want to start your own rag. Go fer it- in all honesty, that sounds pretty cool. I think being a climbing writer would be great fun, despite whatever challenge. But I guarantee that more than one somebody who picks up your upstart lil publication is going to say it blows.
If you're sensitive, bust out the lotion-laced 3-ply tissue and ponder this: somebody says a climbing area- something that represents somebody's blood, sweat, and tears, his burning passion for climbing, or some comparable cliche'- suuuucks, and man is that mean! Don't they know the work that goes into making something for the masses? Way to encourage the developers!
Now, somebody says that an article- something that represents somebody's blood sweat and tears, his burning passion for writing (and climbing, eh?), how he puts food on his family's table, or some comparable cliche'- suuuucks. Man is that mean! Don't they know the work that goes into making something for the masses? Way to encourage the writers!
Yeah. Boo hoo wah.
Oh, and, um, I like Climbing. And Rock and Ice. Attitude? Whatever, I don't let magazines hurt my feelings...
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traddad
Jan 7, 2003, 6:27 PM
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Nice retort, clinbsomething. I mean it.
You should be editor.
(like, you can edit it when I mispell your pen name....sheesh)
Traddad
[ This Message was edited by: traddad on 2003-01-07 10:51 ]
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calimouth
Jan 7, 2003, 8:09 PM
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Call me crazy, but I actually think Rock and Ice is starting to pass up Climbing in terms of usuable info. Climbing has started to focus on a lot of "human interest" features that, although sometimes good, shouldn't be overly emphasized. I especially like the write-in columns to caldwell, rands, and the like.
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mreardon
Jan 7, 2003, 9:29 PM
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Let me know if you're serious Rough. I'll step up and help where I can
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boulderingmadman
Jan 7, 2003, 10:37 PM
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climbsomething--
you present a concundrum as it were, no? here these authors are "trying to please everyone" and have such a "tough skin"...yet your defending their honor for them?
if their skin is soooo tough, as you seem to think it is, how would this little tirade cause them any concern??
secondly, if they ae "trying to please everyone", as you seem to think they are, wouldnt threads like these be useful to them??
well, ill answer the conundrum for you, since you presented it so nicely...
these authors, editors and owners of these magazines are NOT trying to please everyone. they are trying to please corporate sponsors and advertisers.
IF they were trying to please the climbing public, as you so adamantly advocate, then they would NOT be alienating valid forms of climbing (and in essence, valuable members of the climbing community), almost monthly in each magazine they publish.
IF they were trying to "please the masses" with intellectual articles and insightful and informational peridicals, they would certainly NOT be saying one form of climbing is better than another, as they often do...even in those words.
its not a matter of trying to please the readers. its a matter of trying to appease the sponsors. advertisers want to see certain things in a mag they advertise in...
1)controversy. it sells almost as well as sex.(well get to that ) the easiest way to cause a skyrocket in sales is to start a controversy. it boosts sales if for no other reason than the curiosity of the consumer. they buy the mag to see what all the fuss is about...
2)sex. sexy people doing sexy things. sorry, but it is the most WIDELY used marketing tool. it spans product, consumer, and language barriers all with one fell swoop.
3)opinion. it doesnt matter if its a good opinion or a bad opinion. well formed thought or mis-informed blather is beside the point. attach a famous name to an opinion and sales will skyrocket. people will jump on the cause, even if they dont know what it is, just to be part of the "in crowd". (dont believe me? checkout the latest news about movie stars protesting the war in Iraq...)
aside from these features, advertisers dont care. sales can be individual impulse purchases every month, or they can be subscriptions. honestly, the mags would RATHER sell individually and impulseively to different buyers every month because it generates more revenue than subscription sales...and doesnt require any extra costs (like shipping, for the subscriptions...)
so in essence, the regular subscribers to climbing magazine receive LESS care from the mag than the editors would have you believe...
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toobigtoclimb
Jan 7, 2003, 11:15 PM
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After years of reading Climbing, I recently switched to Rock & Ice. The main reason is that Climbing seems to focus on things that simply aren't relevant to me. I enjoy reading a blurb about someone pushing the envelope on ratings, but I also want to read something that I might be able to accomplish. Rock & Ice seems to be have more info. for the common climber. The separate Tips section by climbers in the back is usually good. I noticed that even their topos include some routes between 5.6 and 5.9. I'd like to think this is by design. This is the same reason I cancelled my Outside magazine subscription.
I probably won't be trekking in the highlands of Borneo anytime soon.
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climbsomething
Jan 7, 2003, 11:15 PM
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Actually, Bman, re-read this line:
Quote:
Yeah. Boo hoo wah.
with a dry inflection after reading the "tirade" that precedes it. Hopefully you'll see that I was (sarcastically) referencing a statement made earlier in this thread about the "5 Worst" article being meanie-mean to developers. I was trying to point out that I thought that rather simpery example was a load. Actually, I think a LOT of the simpery comments that gave rise to this thread are a load.
Nah, I wasn't really defending journalists' honor per se- that is best left to protective older brothers beating up their baby sisters' boyfriends for calling her a slut. But I was saying that it's more than meets the eye in writer-land, and if some of the disgruntled try to "do it better themselves" they may have a few things to learn on the way. Like dealing with people like their (former?) selves, for one thing; if they're as "pwease appreciate me" sensitive as it would appear, that'll be tough.
I was pointing out contradictions already made in this thread, not creating them myself. Read again, you'll see.
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micronut
Jan 8, 2003, 3:00 AM
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I don't pay too much attention to the mags.
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boulderingmadman
Jan 8, 2003, 11:22 PM
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ok, climbsomething, i re-read your post, thinking i might have missed something the first time...but i dont think i did.
unless the sarcasm in your previous post is deeply buried behind a giggle that i cant "read" into it myself, i dont get your point.
it definately appears as though you are defending the editors and authors by challenging us to do better ourselves. sorry, but thats just straight up bunk...
i dont have to be an editor or an author to be able to form a valuable and informed opinion of something that ive read. i also dont need to be an editor to notice trends in the directions a magazine seems to be taking. im an intelligent individual with an english degree and a philosophy degree. its pretty safe to assume i know how to read and how to form a valid opinion. hell, i even know how to write complete sentences and form reasonable argumetns and opinions...
for the record, i have done my share of editing and editorial writing for newspapers and mags. ive expressed my opinions and taken my brow-beatings. but ive never written an article dissmissing a certain "something" as invalid, only to then follow up with advertisements promoting the very "something" i just dissmissed and devalued...
my poblem is not with how difficult or thankless a job these people have. my gripe is with how difficult and thankless it is to be their customer....
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ronamick
Jan 8, 2003, 11:52 PM
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Climbing lost touch with real climbers 2 or 3 years ago, when Michael Kennedy sold the mag to a conglomerate that publishes "extreme" sports mags. Although Allison Osius (longtime climber & journalist) was retained as senior editor, it looks to me like the mag has been relegated to some formatting formula which the owners apply to all of their periodicals.
Substitute "street luge" or "naked skydiving crocodile hunter" and you have the sister publication. Mags are all fluff anyway- a source of big claims, false reputation and ego driven baloney. I say blow 'em all up and lets hit the rocks. In my opinion "famous climber" is an oxymoron.
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rockjunkie
Jan 9, 2003, 12:52 AM
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I have more respect for R&I because they don't focus on a specific type of climbing. Climbing magazine not only doesn't do that, but if you notice, they are always talking $#!T about R&I, that's hardcore bunk. They are trying to make climbing trendy, which will be the demise of climbing. Climbers were not meant to be celebrities. Mostly because they're dirty poor and vulgar. at least i am anyways. peace
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willstrickland
Jan 10, 2003, 7:03 PM
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Personally, I like Climbing's new "attitude". I don't neccessarily rush to read all the articles, but often I do. The "Epics" issues were great. My main interest in the rags is info they can provide me....i.e. places to go, cool routes to check out, and inspiration through photos and awe-inspriring achievements. Both mags could do better in this respect. I used to love when they would do a feature on a big wall route, complete with lots of pics and the accompanying story.
HOWEVER, consider what happens when they publicise areas or routes....some people go "cool,I wanna check that out" while a whole lotta others go "hey a**holes, why are you bringing crowds here?". I know I was pissed when the San Rafael swell article was published, but I loved seeing the article on the Winds...see my conflicted attitude?
If you don't like the direction they take, give them some constructive criticism. You can e-mail letters to the editors for god's sake. I think one of the most "real" things I've seen in any climbing pub lately was when Thesenga took the Sharma/weed disqualification to task in an editorial.
Keep in mind, these guys are Colorado based, climb hard, and have a limited amount of material to fill mags 8 times a year. There's bound to be some bias. If it were Cali or Utah based, there would be a different bias. Yes, they could use more reports ala the AAJ, but they strive for balance and variety. If you just wanna read about what went down, buy the AAJ, I do. If you want a variety of topics, read them both. Or don'tread any of them. You can get plenty of news, photos, tips, beta, etc from the net for free. Be constructive or deal people. I thought Samet's spraylord piece was a riot, I could relate to every sterotype there because I've climbed all over the country. While the 5 best/worst crags he chose wouldn't be my 5 (some would overlap) I think the piece was well done. Everyone can bitch, try writing something and submitting it sometime and see how easy it is then. (Yes, I've done this).
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