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climbaddiction
Feb 9, 2012, 4:41 PM
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Sorry if this has been discussed to death, but I couldn't find a clear answer in search. We currently use static rope as a personal anchor to which we attach to with a static prusik/biner when setting up a top rope. This seems to work fine, as long as you are careful to adjust your prusik so if you fall you don't get a big static fall.
However we were wondering if it might be better to use dynamic rope for the anchor rope itself (not the prusik) so in the unlikely chance we do take a fall, it's not onto a static rope? Would this be safer? Is it safe? Or is there something about dynamic rope that makes it not safe to attach a prusik to?
Thoughts? Thanks in advance. I can usually find info between Google and forums like this, but this one leaves me stumped.
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sungam
Feb 9, 2012, 5:11 PM
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Sorry, could you explain what the situation is again? I'm not really clear on what you are saying.
Are you toprope soloing with a prussik?
Or do you mean you are toproping, but for some reason have prussiks involved in the anchor?
Or are you trolling after that Pilot Mountain thread?
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cracklover
Feb 9, 2012, 5:56 PM
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climbaddiction wrote: I can usually find info between Google and forums like this, but this one leaves me stumped.
That's probably because your terminology is totally off the wall. I have no idea what you're asking, and I'm sure Google doesn't either.
A few tips:
personal anchor = what you use to attach yourself to the anchor, such as one of these:
prusik/biner - means nothing. What are you attaching the prusik to? What's the biner for?
"static" prusik/biner - adds nothing. What has the word "static" to do with anything?
- You asked In reply to: is there something about dynamic rope that makes it not safe to attach a prusik to?
But if you're trying to ask if rigging up a toprope anchor using a lot of dynamic rope is a good idea, the answer is no. Dynamic rope is, um... dynamic. That's a property that is not good in anchor rigging.
GO
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potreroed
Feb 9, 2012, 6:25 PM
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Like the others who have responded, I have no idea what the hell you're talking about.
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moose_droppings
Feb 9, 2012, 6:56 PM
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climbaddiction wrote: Sorry if this has been discussed to death, but I couldn't find a clear answer in search. We currently use static rope as a personal anchor to which we attach to with a static prusik/biner when setting up a top rope. This seems to work fine, as long as you are careful to adjust your prusik so if you fall you don't get a big static fall. However we were wondering if it might be better to use dynamic rope for the anchor rope itself (not the prusik) so in the unlikely chance we do take a fall, it's not onto a static rope? Would this be safer? Is it safe? Or is there something about dynamic rope that makes it not safe to attach a prusik to? Thoughts? Thanks in advance. I can usually find info between Google and forums like this, but this one leaves me stumped.
Hard to figure out exactly what you mean, but it is safe to attach a prusik to a dynamic rope
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dagibbs
Feb 9, 2012, 7:14 PM
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climbaddiction wrote: Sorry if this has been discussed to death, but I couldn't find a clear answer in search. We currently use static rope as a personal anchor to which we attach to with a static prusik/biner when setting up a top rope. This seems to work fine, as long as you are careful to adjust your prusik so if you fall you don't get a big static fall. However we were wondering if it might be better to use dynamic rope for the anchor rope itself (not the prusik) so in the unlikely chance we do take a fall, it's not onto a static rope? Would this be safer? Is it safe? Or is there something about dynamic rope that makes it not safe to attach a prusik to? Thoughts? Thanks in advance. I can usually find info between Google and forums like this, but this one leaves me stumped.
Let me see if I can clarify what the situation is.
You're working at/near the top of a cliff to set up a top-rope. You wish to anchor yourself so that, if you slip, you won't fall over the cliff. You are currently using a static rope attached to something (e.g. a tree) farther back. (Or, are you clipping to the anchor itself, potentially over the cliff edge?) You are attaching to this static rope with a prussik & biner through that prussik to your harness. Is this correct?
If you are anchoring to something back from the cliff, and the static rope has something to prevent the prussik from sliding all the way off, then the prussik will (to some extent) be a limiting factor -- but if the prussik does not "grab" when you fall (and they are in no way guaranteed to do so), then you could take a static fall onto the rope/anchor. If that is a short fall, you're probably ok.
If you are anchoring to something over the edge, then you're looking at a > 1 fall factor fall, onto static rope. This can be dangerous. A dynamic rope would definitely be a better idea.
Yes, prussiks can be used on dynamic rope, this is a common thing to do.
Or, have I missed what you are asking?
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climbaddiction
Feb 9, 2012, 9:45 PM
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dagibbs wrote: climbaddiction wrote: Sorry if this has been discussed to death, but I couldn't find a clear answer in search. We currently use static rope as a personal anchor to which we attach to with a static prusik/biner when setting up a top rope. This seems to work fine, as long as you are careful to adjust your prusik so if you fall you don't get a big static fall. However we were wondering if it might be better to use dynamic rope for the anchor rope itself (not the prusik) so in the unlikely chance we do take a fall, it's not onto a static rope? Would this be safer? Is it safe? Or is there something about dynamic rope that makes it not safe to attach a prusik to? Thoughts? Thanks in advance. I can usually find info between Google and forums like this, but this one leaves me stumped. Let me see if I can clarify what the situation is. You're working at/near the top of a cliff to set up a top-rope. You wish to anchor yourself so that, if you slip, you won't fall over the cliff. You are currently using a static rope attached to something (e.g. a tree) farther back. (Or, are you clipping to the anchor itself, potentially over the cliff edge?) You are attaching to this static rope with a prussik & biner through that prussik to your harness. Is this correct? If you are anchoring to something back from the cliff, and the static rope has something to prevent the prussik from sliding all the way off, then the prussik will (to some extent) be a limiting factor -- but if the prussik does not "grab" when you fall (and they are in no way guaranteed to do so), then you could take a static fall onto the rope/anchor. If that is a short fall, you're probably ok. If you are anchoring to something over the edge, then you're looking at a > 1 fall factor fall, onto static rope. This can be dangerous. A dynamic rope would definitely be a better idea. Yes, prussiks can be used on dynamic rope, this is a common thing to do. Or, have I missed what you are asking?
Haha wow sorry, I didn't realize I did such a bad job explaining myself. This above is exactly right. You have static rope which is attached to a bolt or a tree near the cliff edge, just in case you slip and fall off the cliff edge. The cordlette has a prusik which is attached (wrapped?) on the static rope and the cordlette is attached to biner which then attaches to belay loop on harness.
Question is simply, can we safely substitute the static rope with a dynamic rope instead as it seems safer to me.
And yes the static rope has a figure 8 on a bight at the end as a backup in case prusik doesn't catch for some reason.
(This post was edited by climbaddiction on Feb 9, 2012, 9:46 PM)
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dagibbs
Feb 9, 2012, 9:48 PM
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climbaddiction wrote: Question is simply, can we safely substitute the static rope with a dynamic rope instead as it seems safer to me.
Having clarified... yes you can (and should) use a dynamic rope there, rather than a static one, as it will be safer.
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olderic
Feb 9, 2012, 10:09 PM
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dagibbs wrote: climbaddiction wrote: Question is simply, can we safely substitute the static rope with a dynamic rope instead as it seems safer to me. Having clarified... yes you can (and should) use a dynamic rope there, rather than a static one, as it will be safer.
dynamic rope is better for the prussic, Static is better for the anchor. What a conundrum. What should you do? Well lets think about it. What's the primary purpose for the piece of rope? tada - TR anchor. Very good. So it should be static. But then how will you attach your prussic? Think some more....
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climbaddiction
Feb 9, 2012, 10:11 PM
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Cool thanks! So uhh is "Personal Anchor" the wrong term for this system? If so what would we call it?
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dagibbs
Feb 9, 2012, 10:12 PM
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olderic wrote: dagibbs wrote: climbaddiction wrote: Question is simply, can we safely substitute the static rope with a dynamic rope instead as it seems safer to me. Having clarified... yes you can (and should) use a dynamic rope there, rather than a static one, as it will be safer. dynamic rope is better for the prussic, Static is better for the anchor. What a conundrum. What should you do? Well lets think about it. What's the primary purpose for the piece of rope? tada - TR anchor. Very good. So it should be static. But then how will you attach your prussic? Think some more....
I'd say that if you were talking about building an anchor for the top-rope itself, then clearly a static rope is better for that.
But, for a personal anchor -- I don't think this is the case. I think using a dynamic rope for this is just as reasonable as tieing into an anchor with your climbing rope while leading multi-pitch climbs.
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climbaddiction
Feb 9, 2012, 10:13 PM
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This is being used to keep US from falling off, it's not being attached to the TR anchor itself (which is also static rope and not really part of this question other than setting up TR anchor means we need to not fall off cliff while doing it)
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dagibbs
Feb 9, 2012, 10:15 PM
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climbaddiction wrote: Cool thanks! So uhh is "Personal Anchor" the wrong term for this system? If so what would we call it?
I don't know that "Personal Anchor" is a wrong term, just that I don't think it is an accepted term. I haven't run into a short, simple, accepted term for what you we are talking about here.
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bearbreeder
Feb 9, 2012, 11:17 PM
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a better way IMO is to set up a single strand rap and tie in sort, using a prussic/kelmheist backup underneath the device ... easier to control should you slip going over the edge ... some people also have a panic reflex where they grab the rope, often the knot, when they fall ...
there is nothing wrong with the way you described though ... its in mr luebbens anchor book
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Feb 9, 2012, 11:20 PM)
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climbaddiction
Feb 9, 2012, 11:30 PM
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Thanks Bearbreeder I will look into your suggest. But what you showed in the scanned image is exactly what I am talking about except our instructor taught us to tie a figure 8 on a bight somewhere below the prusik instead of what the book is showing (tieing it harness). The idea being even if prusik fails you don't want to fall all the way to the end of the rope (like the guy in that diagram would do if the prusik somehow didn't work).
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bearbreeder
Feb 9, 2012, 11:47 PM
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i would suggest tying in short regardless of which system you use ... either a bight tied off early .... or match the end of the rope to your anchor height ...
the advantage of using a rap device is that yr decent on steeper edges its more controlled, especially if you need to go over a lip and hang to set it up ... on low angle either will be fine ... with a friction knot there is always the possibility of releasing it and falling each time you grab it to slide it down ... and it doesnt matter too much what rope you use with a rap device
i remember when i first started using kleimheists to ascend a rope that i accidently released it when i grabbed it ...
you seem to have a good head on yr shoulders ... youll be fine
(This post was edited by bearbreeder on Feb 9, 2012, 11:52 PM)
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healyje
Feb 9, 2012, 11:50 PM
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Just use a dynamic rope with a knot in the end and a grigri.
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surfstar
Feb 10, 2012, 2:30 AM
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purcell prusik?
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Rmsyll2
Feb 10, 2012, 2:35 AM
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The photos supplied are for doing what you are asking about, if the item is long enough:
http://www.metoliusclimbing.com/...l_anchor_system.html
and you can read another term there, "daisy chain".
What you basically are asking about would be "tying in" and please note correct spelling. Even in books with editors, it is incorrectly imo used as "tie into" as in the included photo caption, rather than "tie in to".
Why does anyone think there is something "safer" about dynamic rope for this use? There is no prospective distance in the event of a fall for stetch to amount to much. Static rope is commonly thicker and stronger than climbing rope, as well as cheaper, and commonly used for exactly such purposes (yes, I have photos). A https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_hitch is provided by a narrower cord, with a ratio of diameters suggested, but friction is going to be friction; and a Klemheist can be made with narrow webbing.
If all you are doing is working on the rim, get anything you have or don't mind buying and carrying that will take a top-rope-type fall and make an attachment at a length that will allow you to do what you need. I don't understand the "US" part: how many need to be tied in? The loop knot called Bunny Ears will make two tie-ins, and there is a variation for three. This is commonly done for multi-person multi-pitch climbing.
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mikebee
Feb 10, 2012, 7:25 AM
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It may be better termed as a "personal safety", rather than a personal anchor.
What you describe is common place in Adelaide for setting up top ropes at our local crag. A dynamic would be better, but practically speaking, the static is fine.
The chance of you slipping and falling near the edge of the cliff is very low, the chance of that happening and then your well tied and tested prussik failing to grab aswell is not zero, but it's very close to being so.
Do note though, that the safest way to use the prussik in this situation is to keep the prussik as close to the anchor as possible (ie between you and the anchor, rather than between you and the edge), so that you don't fall onto the prussik as much as merely load it.
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climbaddiction
Feb 10, 2012, 8:58 PM
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Thanks everyone for the help and clarification.
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herites
Feb 10, 2012, 9:55 PM
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This
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snoboy
Feb 18, 2012, 6:44 AM
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What you are describing is often called an edge line in the rescue world. It is set up exactly as in the picture that was scanned above.
Best practice is to make a loop at the end of the line and toss it to the edge, then tie another loop to connect it to the anchor. Pull the end you tossed back to you and tie or clip in. Add the prussik and clip into that as well. Now you have a line that is not long enough to allow a fall.
As long as you are using it as fall restraint (not long enough to allow a fall) then static line is well suited for this task. Dynamic line will work also.
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