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stoneguy
Jul 13, 2012, 12:22 AM
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For TR Solo, ... I have NO question-Zero.
Lead Solo, on the other hand, is a different ballgame.
The question (if you would be so kind)... is . I have been tending to run 5-10 feet of rope out lately, before my first nut. I only climb where I can find a big rock or tree, to tie off then, drop my first Nut about 8-10 feet high, thus building in some rope stretch, should I fall. I drop-test this to ensure my head is at least 3 feet off the ground.
Is this wrong.? Or can you suggest a better scenario.
I plan to do much the same on multi-pitch, and run at least 5 feet above my intended belay anchor (if thats the right word) then drop back to build it. Thus avoiding large FF falls.
In part, the reasoning is that there is no approved gear, and so whatever is used is low KN. Thus I need to limit the KN/force carefully.
There seems to be no consensus on gear, and I use a Microcender (not approved as primary) with Butterfly back-ups. The MC will slip at 4Kn, but many feel the lead falls are unlikely to be over this.
Thoughts......?
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moose_droppings
Jul 13, 2012, 1:04 AM
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stoneguy wrote: For TR Solo, ... I have NO question-Zero. Lead Solo, on the other hand, is a different ballgame. The question (if you would be so kind)... is . I have been tending to run 5-10 feet of rope out lately, before my first nut. I only climb where I can find a big rock or tree, to tie off then, drop my first Nut about 8-10 feet high, thus building in some rope stretch, should I fall. I drop-test this to ensure my head is at least 3 feet off the ground. Is this wrong.? Or can you suggest a better scenario. I plan to do much the same on multi-pitch, and run at least 5 feet above my intended belay anchor (if thats the right word) then drop back to build it. Thus avoiding large FF falls. In part, the reasoning is that there is no approved gear, and so whatever is used is low KN. Thus I need to limit the KN/force carefully. There seems to be no consensus on gear, and I use a Microcender (not approved as primary) with Butterfly back-ups. The MC will slip at 4Kn, but many feel the lead falls are unlikely to be over this. Thoughts......?
Not sure I'm picking up what your laying down, but, how close you'll come to the ground depends on (1.) how high your first piece is and (2.) how far above that piece you fall from and (3.) the physical factors of your rope and (4.) your weight. Given those factors you can get a pretty close estimate as to how far you'll fall below your pro with rope stretch included.
The microcender is NOT a good device for lead roped soloing but is a great device for TR soloing.
As for as placing a piece above where you intend to self belay from, have at it.
Edited to clarify lead "roped" soloing.
(This post was edited by moose_droppings on Jul 13, 2012, 1:24 AM)
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mikebee
Jul 13, 2012, 4:15 AM
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In reply to: I drop-test this to ensure my head is at least 3 feet off the ground.
Not sure if I'm reading this right, but are you saying that once you've placed your first bit you're using yourself as a means to test how far you'll fall?
If so, that sounds crazy dangerous and totally unneeded.
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stoneguy
Jul 13, 2012, 2:23 PM
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I kind of aid the first piece, weight it, bounce etc.,make sure it's solid, maybe even a small drop, as at that point I'd be 3-5 feet off the ground.
If it's not going to hold, I'd rather know in a controlled jump.
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anthonymason
Jul 13, 2012, 2:58 PM
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Go out and buy your self a SILENT PARTNER.
Since moving out in the sticks its hard for me to have a climbing partner, hence I use the SP almost every time out.
This device allows me to sport climb alone, even big walls alone, but I choose the routes more carefully, since using a SP you have to rap to clean, then jug back up(multi-pitch).
I have had to lower the grades that I would normally climb, and I don't do any overhanging sport climbs with the SP, I feel it is too risky.
Using the Silent Partner, uses almost the same procedures that you would with a live partner
I.E. Tie in like you are about to lead, then tie a clove hitch around the drum of the SP and attach it to the swami, then flake out you rope on the ground, making sure that the rope is in the right orientation so as you start to climb it does not bind up you're device.
I tend to use about twenty feet or so of slack girth hitched to my harness while I start to climb, this allows me to feed out rope rope without any hang-ups.
Also I tie the other end to my pack/rock/tree at the base.
I also use flat shoe lace prusiked around the rope,for the 1st few pieces of pro/ this stops the rope from slipping back to the ground, but would break easily if I were to peel.
Once I am about 25-50' off the deck I pull up the remaining slack, tie it off. and continue up.
Once I am at a good location ie multi-pitch,
I set up the achors, tie off, rap down, and clean, then put on my pack, undo any anchors on the deck. If the route I just climbed is easy I use a RESCUE-CENDER attached to the rope, and this allows me to climb back up fairly fast. If the route was hard and will re-tie into the SP and climb back up as if I were on Top Rope. If it was a realy hard climb, I jug up.
I would suggest choosing routes that have the straightest lines, since I am doing the work of 2 peeps, rope management is key. I once chose a muti-pitch route that zigzaged and I ended up in an EPIC, I had to do things that really were not safe and if my wife had seen the scenario that I put myself into, it would be the end of my climbing days.
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pendereki
Jul 13, 2012, 4:35 PM
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I also use and like the Silent Partner. Your system sounds similar to mine but what do you mean by "tie the other end to my pack/rock/tree". Do you have one end tied to an anchor and the other to pack/rock/tree? Or are you using your pack as an anchor?
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vinnie83
Jul 13, 2012, 4:41 PM
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stoneguy wrote: If it's not going to hold, I'd rather know in a controlled jump.
If you're uncomfortable visually inspecting your placements it might be a good idea to get more experience placing gear instead of bounce testing stuff on a free climb. Being able to place and evaluate gear is a necessity for lead climbing. It appears that you aren't confidant in your ability to do so, but you're making the situation much more complicated by trying to do it while roped soloing.
If that first piece off of your anchor on a multi pitch fails while you're bounce testing it you just took a very high factor fall onto the anchor with a less than ideal belay setup. Not something I want to do even if it is a 'controlled' jump.
EDIT: Your original post is extremely confusing and I think everyone else here is still trying to figure out exactly what you are describing.
(This post was edited by vinnie83 on Jul 13, 2012, 4:44 PM)
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healyje
Jul 13, 2012, 7:58 PM
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To be honest, your choice of a microsender and your lack of comfort in and ability to visually judge the quality of your gear leaves me of the impression you need way, way more partnered trad climbing experience before venturing into free lead rope-soloing.
If you're going to do it anyway then get a device commonly used for that purpose - Silent Partner, Eddy, Soloist - hell, even a grigri.
I've been multipitch free roped soloing for 36 years and never once has 'FF' ever entered into my thinking nor have I ever tested a first placement (or any other placement) in any way.
I applaud and admire your spirit and spunk, but I'd suggest you consider getting more trad leading experience with partners before attempting all this.
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stoneguy
Jul 13, 2012, 8:42 PM
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I test the first piece because "I can". Easily reachable at 8 feet high, and an important piece. By being up 8-10 feet I feel it lessens the directional pull. I certainly don't bounce any other pieces.
we are primarily in limestone, so even when looking solid, some blocks can move.(and sometimes it's all blocky.) On small nuts that would be bad. If it's bomber, then I don't.
The "jump" would be a low FF. 10 Feet rope, 2 feet out, 2 feet drop, or less and all below the Nut.
My apologies, if it's confusing.
Anchor to a tree 10 feet out. First nut 10 feet up. Should give me about 3 feet of rope stretch in the test.
I would be comforatable if all placements were bomber, but that doesn't always happen.
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stoneguy
Jul 13, 2012, 8:46 PM
Post #10 of 16
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Yes, I need to look into the Silent Partner. I agree with much of what you've said. I don't do any overhangs either and yes have lowered the grades as well.
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stoneguy
Jul 13, 2012, 8:57 PM
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Admittedly there is much to learn. Always.
The Microcender has some great test results in massive falls on knots, where many others have failed(Petzl). I am aware that it is not a primarily device, but it does slide easily at least (the Grigri sucks) and I back it up with butterfly knots.
At this stage, I am keeping it to short lead outs, and less than 4Kn, where the Microcender would slip.
I am taking it slow & steady, which is why I'm asking.
I DO need to read up on the Silent Partner.
Thanks to all for the comments.
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anthonymason
Jul 14, 2012, 12:16 AM
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I tie into one end of the rope , clove into the SP, and close to the other end I form another clove to clip into an anchor, and tie the end to the pack. My locations that I generally climb at are not level but rather at an incline and I do not want my pack rolling down the scree etc.
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stoneguy
Jul 14, 2012, 12:53 AM
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On the drive home, I thought about everyone's comments, and yes, I have lost confidence.
I guess to add some substance, I started climbing about a year ago. First day out, onsighted all climbs to 5.9. Now lead 5.8. So I haven't really bumped the grades, but worked on technique, gear etc.
And, yes, I wish I had started 40 years ago.
The rock here(limestone) at 5.7-5.10 is quite solid, deep cracks, fault lines 4-8ft apart, even the flakes are quite reasonable. As I downgrade my routes to 5.5-5.7 for my solo practice, they cliffs are vertical, no overhangs, no ledge, usually short, and "blocky".
I tried to sneak one in after work last week, and I swear they were all 300 lb blocks all the way up. I could have dislodged many with a crowbar. Alto' the blocky routes allow for much placement, the harder routes would be much, much, safer. Any of those blocks could move 1/4" on a fall.
Hence the loss of confidence, and I believe rightly so. It felt wrong and I backed off, altho' at the time didn't understand why.
Anyway, the comments are still appreciated.
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pendereki
Jul 14, 2012, 1:15 AM
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anthonymason wrote: I tie into one end of the rope , clove into the SP, and close to the other end I form another clove to clip into an anchor, and tie the end to the pack. My locations that I generally climb at are not level but rather at an incline and I do not want my pack rolling down the scree etc.
I am quoting simply for posterity---can anyone else make sense of this guys system?
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healyje
Jul 14, 2012, 9:43 AM
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I do, he's say his pack would roll down the hill if he didn't secure it and he just happens to secure it with a long tail end of his rope from his anchor.
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healyje
Jul 14, 2012, 9:54 AM
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Stoneguy, climbing grade really isn't an issue or concern so much as general trad experience. In general with a year of [hopefully trad] climbing I'd say it's premature to venture into free lead rope soloing on trad routes of any grade.
And it doesn't sound like the rock (blocks) on these routes is something you should probably be gambling on without a lot more experience placing gear in it, falling on it, and generally understanding it's behavior better.
I'd still suggest you find an experienced trad partner or partners, get couple of solid years under your belt and then revisit this topic. To do this 'safely' requires a reasonable level of confidence, comfort and intuition around the rock, your placements, your own performance, and can't really be 'winged' without a high level of risk.
You've clearly got the spirit, you now just need the wisdom that only comes through experience and that in turn really needs to happen with some experienced trad climbers.
P.S. Don't worry about the forty years ago thing, or the grades/difficulty thing - just stay focused on the getting in the yardage with competent trad leaders and the rest will follow on its own.
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