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rideandclimbkid
Jan 12, 2003, 3:41 AM
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I wasnt quite sure how to toprope solo, so i devised my own method. a downward anchor is placed at the top of the cliff. and upward anchor is placed at the bottom of the cliff. the rope runs over the top anchor as normal, but one rope runs through the bottom. you tie in to your harness with both tails with figure 8's, so you become the final link in a continuous loop of rope(like a bike chain), held up with the top anchor like a normal toprope. you are climbing to the left of the anchor, so we'll say your left rope is the section of rope that comes from you to the top anchor. the right rope, the section of rope that goes from the top anchor through the ground anchor and back up to you is your right rope. you tie a prussic loop on the right rope, and extend it off your harness with a 2 or 3 foot rabbit runner. if you fall, the right rope would want to pull up, but since your prusik is attached to you and your on the left rope, you weight both ropes evenly, thus you dont move. as you climb up to the prusik, you simply slide it farther up the rope. you could use a second prusik as a backup, moving two prusiks up everytime, on two different pieces of accessory cord(7-8mm) the bottom anchor would hold the rope to the ground so that you didnt pull it up with you as you climbed.
that was an EXAMPLE. would that actually work? has anyone ever tried it this way? lets just pretend i dont have a belayer and my grigri or other solo device is at home.
The Kid
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orangekyak
Jan 12, 2003, 4:01 AM
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while researching various opinions on safe TR soloing, I've noticed that the common opinion on prussik-based systems warns against the melting of the prussik cord in a high-friction fall situation.
Your "bike chain" concept, under tension, seems like a viable way to autofeed rope.
still, i'm wondering if the best option for when you forget your rope device might be to go bouldering.
o.k.
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rockjunkie
Jan 12, 2003, 4:11 AM
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I'm not totally sure that the prussiks would tighten up right away if you shock loaded them because usually weight is transferred to them slowly. I'm not sure, i've never shock loaded a prussik. But assuming it did, or in the case that you had a self belaying device, i think it would be better to just anchor the rope at the top and have a single line going downward.you would climb up in the fashion that you described. i saw a guy do this at otter cliffs in maine one time. he set up his top rope anchor but instead of running the rope through the lockers he lowered the rope down to the bottom and tied it into them instead. i assume that he used a figure 8 on a bight but ididn't get a close look. he rappelled to the base on the single line then put the grigri on his harness put on the rope and began climbing. this was the first time i had ever seen it done. i'm fairly sure that that's how it was rigged. anyone have any modifications to this unless i missed any thing????
peace and safe journeys.
p.s. yeah, on second thought, just go bouldering.
[ This Message was edited by: rockjunkie on 2003-01-11 20:12 ]
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jbur
Jan 12, 2003, 4:35 AM
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There are many proven methods of top rope soloing. This is not one of them. It might work, but it over complicates things. How are you going to lower yourself or switch over to rappel? In your system the prusik will have to hold a little less than half your body weight after accounting for friction in your top anchor. Is that going to be enough force to lock the prusik? I don't know. Lots of things to think about before inventing a system. There are many devices both approved (some ascenders, silent partner, ect.) and some not approved (gri gri) that work quite well. Check out some of the threads on this site for more info on soloing. Number one rule of rope soloing always have a back-up or like was said before, go bouldering.
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orangekyak
Jan 12, 2003, 4:46 AM
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can anyone suggest any of the ascenders that HAVE manufacturer's approval for this use?
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farmerc
Jan 12, 2003, 5:08 AM
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The petzl basic is recommended by petzl for solo. Frankly, I think it would be stupid to use a basic over a grigri for soloing.
~Chris
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triallair
Jan 12, 2003, 5:16 AM
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I've soloed on the gri gri. No catastrophic failures. Not sure I'd trust anything else. Especially a Solo with plastic pieces. Find a cute partner instead.
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rideandclimbkid
Jan 12, 2003, 5:26 AM
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haha yeah, i think i'll try and find that cute partner. I thought of this idea as an inexpensive possibility to my dilema. Im 16 so i cant drive, mom works after school, and my friend that i climb with plays ice hockey for two teams so its hard to find a partner some days. theres really only one place i can climb, but it just so happens to be relatively low, about 30 feet, over water. its an old stone bridge, and i guess if i had to describe it, id say it's like an outdoor climbing gym. every piece of stone that they used when they built it is liek 1 or 2 seperate handholds and the best part is, its 5 minutes walk from my house. the system that i described would not be used anywheres else but here, because even if this system failed, it wouldnt be too catastrophic. the river is a good 10 feet deep. the main point of this system would be to keep me dry haha, and i might just do some highballin' in the summer when it would be nice to get wet. just imagine poppin off and falling 20 feet onto a 10 foot thick ice cold pad when its in the mid 90's ...ohhhhhhhh yeah.
Thanks for the advice
The Kid
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justsendingits
Jan 12, 2003, 8:56 AM
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farmerc said---"I think it would be stupid to use a basic over a grigri for soloing. "
Chris,what does it say in the grigri owners manual about it's use?Its for belaying only right?
I have used the grigri for TR,but only cause it's easy to lower out. But after reading some of the topics on this site about gruigri's,I will no longer use them for leading,or TR.
If you are TR on a climb that is hard for u,it can hard to pull in rope at the crux.So sometimes u end up with slack in the rope,when u fall u shock laod the rope and anchors a bit(or a lot)more.I have used this setup on a STATIC rope,which is stupid,u can never have more than a couple inches of slack at any time.
On a hard fall,with smaller diamiter ropes(dynamic),u can get elongation of the rope which makes it even smaller.So the rope ends up going right thru the grigri.
I do not think it is stupid to use the petz. basic ascender over the grigri.I mean like read the directions eh?
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orangekyak
Jan 12, 2003, 1:24 PM
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before we get too far into this (because we all know that this is about to become a gri gri lovers vs. the world thread) ...
can anyone SUGGEST solo belay devices that they have used for soloing AND have the manufacturers recommendation??
I've TR soloed on the gri gri, the pros and cons of which have been stated many times on this site.
Please comment on the original poster's idea or suggest a safe, recommended device.
o.k.
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grit-freak
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Jan 12, 2003, 1:41 PM
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Petzl 'Shunt' works for me, everytime.
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shortfatoldguy
Jan 12, 2003, 2:06 PM
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Yes to the Shunt. I've got one for solo TR, and that application is covered in the instructions for use. (One or two ropes, btw.)
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pywiak
Jan 12, 2003, 2:44 PM
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My Petzl ascenders came with a diagram showing how to rig one for solo TR. I've done a couple hundred pitches in this manner with no difficulties. When set up properly, it is a hands-free operation - you just climb.
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rrrADAM
Jan 12, 2003, 2:55 PM
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Don't use a prusik alone in any scenario. It can melt and you will die.
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dbrayack
Jan 12, 2003, 3:36 PM
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alright dude, one word, grigri. I have top rope soloed a lot with these, of course, blah blah blah cover my butt don't die, but it works, make sure you use a dynamic line with a solid anchor on top, don't anchor on the bottom as you will need to pull up slack as if you were belaying when ever you get a good hold, also, you can tie some eights on a bites in the line for the first 20 or so feet so you don't deck incase the gri gri slips.
Prusiks are a bad idea.
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repete
Jan 12, 2003, 4:38 PM
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Rideandclimb the system that i use is i rig a top rope anchor then run the rope through the anchor like i am going to do a normal tr then you can rap or walk to the base of the climb. Now what i do is rig an anchor at the bottom of the climb that will take an upward load and i tie one of the ends (end one)of my rope in directly to this anchor. then i use a BD basic ascender (which is approved for TR soloing), you clip this into the other end of the rope (end 2) or where ever it meets the base of the climb. Then i just climb up as normal and the ascender follows. The reason that i run the rope through the anchor and tie it into an anchor att he bottom aposed to fixing it to the top anchor is that this way when you fall the rope has more stretch, therefor it is easier on the rope. also i do this because i generaly climb in wooded areas so slinging a tree for an anchor at the bottom of a climb takes about 2 seconds. If you cant find an anchor at the bottom of the climb fixing the rope directly to the top anchor should be fine. as i climb i will tie an overhand on a bight every 15 feet or so to back up the ascender. I hope this all makes sense. PM me if it doesnt or come down to central pa sometime and i could show ya.
[ This Message was edited by: repete on 2003-01-12 08:44 ]
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marks
Jan 12, 2003, 5:46 PM
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just use a petzl shunt,thats what i do.
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meridian
Jan 12, 2003, 7:26 PM
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The Ushba Basic ascender rocks:
http://www.ushba.com/catalog/access.html
Just be prepared to switch over to your rap device if you want to go down _at all_ or try the handled ascender (I have'nt tried the handled).
I wish Ushba would put out a whole line of gear in Titanium!
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climberer
Jan 13, 2003, 9:27 AM
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whatever happened to tibloc solo guy? use him as an example of what NOT to do.
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twrock
Jan 13, 2003, 11:19 AM
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Although Petzl "recommends" the Shunt, Basic and Ascension for "toprope soloing," that is not a blanket endorsement of every scenario you can come up with. You need to read and understand the user manual for whatever device you choose. (For example, did you know that they don't "approve" the use of the Shunt for overhanging rock?)
I've used the Soloist (Wren), Shunt and Silent Partner (Wren). Incidentally the most painful fall I ever took was toprope soloing with a Shunt in a gym. I was just short of the anchor with both ends of the rope through the device when I fell. With so little rope out, there was almost no dynamic quality to the rope, and I really wrenched my back. (There was a very loud "thump" as the rope pulled tight on the toprope bar.)
Just be really careful with any solo system. And ALWAYS tie in with some kind of backup knot.
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taxexile
Jan 13, 2003, 11:38 AM
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I agree with twrock that no solo device is totally fool-proof. As he states, Petzl do state that the Shunt should not used on overhanging rock, and it is possible to fall in such a way that the device fails to engage. However, this risk can be minimised by avoiding having gear or clothing that could interfere with the mechanism, and ensuring that the Shunt has freedom of movement. The short fall he describes presumably occurred because he let some slack develop in the system.
The way most climbers (by which I mean me) get around this is to tie something fairly heavy to the bottom of the rope, allowing the Shunt to self-feed.
This makes it difficult to tie back-up knots. However, the routes I tend to top rope with a Shunt are typically fairly steep and quite thin and rarely present the luxury of a hands-free rest where I could tie a backup knot.
Short of using a second top-rope with pre-knotted clip-in loops, I'm not sure how I could back-up this sort of climb with my system.
I've used my (unbacked-up system) for years without mishap, but I don't want to be complacement. Any suggestions on a safer system on steep ground?
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twrock
Jan 15, 2003, 3:14 AM
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There are a few options for the backup knot. Wren's suggestion of a pre-rigged second line with pre-tied loops to clip to is not bad. Kind of like stopping to place gear. And if your route is vertical (or more), you can just climb to a height that avoids a groud fall, tie in once to the second line, and finish the route. Your looking at a huge whipper, but at least it should keep you alive.
Since we are talking about toproping anyway, another options would be to just stop, sit down on your Shunt, tie a backup knot below you to clip into, and then get back on it. I suppose some people are going to say "Yeah, but then you didn't send the route no falls." Who cares. You're toproping, not placing gear anyway, so who cares if the "send" counts? I kinda prefer living over sending. But, yes, this system eliminates the advantage of the weighted rope, and you'll probably need to pull the rope through the Shunt for the first bit after you tie in.
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hishopper
Jan 15, 2003, 3:31 AM
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I, too, played around with solo setups before even thinking about seeing what equipment or techniques had already been developed. Although I'm sure the peeps above are correct about the solo devices, there is another option - (instead of the continuous loop, but still requiring a bottom anchor)
It's a blake hitch (or similair - there's one that follows easier than the blake, but I can't remember the name) of smaller dia rope around the belay rope, with the end of the blake going to your harness with a little slack. This is the *only* protection tree guys use when "foot-locking" tall trees. Same idea, no device, climb, advance blake, climb, repeat...
The only thing about this is you have to know the hitch and have the right dia to dia ratio to ensure it locks up under any condition. I'm sure I'll get flame-broiled over posting this (in fact, maybe I'll change the nature of my post now from "another option is" to "I once tried using"), but all the tree guys I know have used it for years, and I myself have fallen on it and climbed with it. I trust a knot made with my own hands way more than *any* device.
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repete
Jan 15, 2003, 3:40 AM
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yea i forgot to say what tax said. I always tie a boot or an empty pack to the bottom of my rope so that my ascender self feeds.
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coclimber26
Jan 15, 2003, 3:50 PM
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pay 30bucks for the petzl soloist and be happy. Messing with 2 prussiks the whole route is a pain in the butt. You don't have to anchor the bottom just coil the extra rope then tie it off the ground so your device runs smooth through the rope.
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